Forked Thread: Acrobatic Stunts - What Can You Do (DC?)

[Pickles JG]

A lot of these thief acrobat abilites are now covered by feats & rogue utility powers eg Unfettered Stride epic feat, Dazzling Acrobatics rogue utlity 22, Leaping Dodge Rogue Utility 16.

I do think movies are the best source for stunts.

Even without mechanical advantages they can make combat more fun - it was most of the fun in Feng Shui when fighting unnamed mooks (aka minions).

The mechanical advantage is possible too - moving where you otherwise could not or getting encounter power levels of damage for one shot stunts without using encounter powers.

The high point of my 4 ed so far was bull rushing a Ranger into an Iron Maiden. You may know the scene.

It helps to create setting with lots of possible details & allow the players to fill in the specifics if it lets them gain an edge = though this conflicts with maps a bit.

Something like an alchemicalware house with vats & bottles & tubes to be creatively used or a foundry - or the sawmill in one of the pathfinder modules (which is not really a spoiler I hope).

 

[dmjalund]

Climbing using Acrobatics

Any thoughts on Difficulty level of using Acrobatics for Climbing

my thought was to highly penalize Encumbrance

 

[mneme]

In general, I wouldn't let acrobatics duplicate athletics exactly (though a house rule that they're really the same skill but that climb/jump/swim/open door/move heavy object/force your way out of a grab add your bonuses to strength, whereas more "acrobatic" uses add your bonuses to Dex seems entirely doable)--but in many situations, it's kosher to come up with "acrobatic" equivalents to a strength check--just like many situations where you -could- make an acrobatics check can also be handled by just jumping over an obstacle.


In addition to swinging on chandeliers and randomly appearing ropes, I think a "wall jump" manuver where the acrobat jumps rapidly between two surfaces seems a fine way to make an ascent.

Regarding escalating difficulty with level, I think the important thing to do is make the new difficulty match the chrome. At first level, it's 15 DC to swing on a handy curtain rope. At 6th level, it's 20 DC to jump and swing on a chandelier. At 11th level, it's a DC 25 to wall jump using the wall and aa convenient giant. At 16th level, you get to make attacks against the giant while you do it (but the DC is 30). At 21st level, you just run up the wall (just make sure you make it to the top before you stop unless you want to make an acrobatics check to reduce falling damage) -- etc.

Each increase in level/tier should result in an increase of difficulty in stunts (unlike Athletics, you don't get to make your stunts on easy mode--except for reducing falling damage, of course), but that should also result in greater degrees of freedom and more conditions under which the stunts are possible.

IIRC, there are LFR modules where ascending a cliff is an athletics check (at half speed) or an acrobatics check (at full speed, but a higher DC and a greater chance of falling if you fail).

 

[Stalker0]

swing from a chandelier: 15
somersault over an opponent: 15
slide down a staircase on your shield: 20
sail slide: 15

Might I recommend a different approach?

Mechanically what do all those checks do mechanically?

1) Avoid OA's
2) Maybe get a bonus to speed.

Instead of requiring a lot of checks for all of those things, I would recommend one or two checks, one for each mechanical benefit.

Then let him describe the acrobatic flavor in whichever way he wants.


Imo, you never want to impose a lot of checks on something that ultimately amounts to flavor. If a player just wants to sound cool, but isn't get any benefit, then let it be free. If he wants some mechanical benefit, then make him pay the appropriate price for it.



This is actually my main beef with the acrobatic stunt in general, by its general description its simply a check to perform a flavor stunt. The rules don't provide any mechanics on what advantage you gain with the stunt.

 

[mneme]

The primary thing you get out of flavor is access. This means that -if- flavor is a valid restriction (eg, in a theater, stunts are easy. On the plane of air? Just a bit harder), then it's worth charging for it.

But just flavoring an existing manuver? Making your attack a sumersault jumping over an obstruction rather than just a charge (when the charge is possible)? That should be free.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think it's probably a good idea to have a DM-worked system for building up a DC, including bonuses and penalties, and require a zero sum.

Sooo

If I succeed, I will
Deal damage: +1
Inflict prone, slowed, deafened: +1
Inflict immobilized, blinded: +2
Inflict restrained, dazed: +3
...(save ends): double
Slide: +1/square
Ignore OA: +1

If I fail I will
Take damage: -1
Fall prone, become slowed, immobilized, blinded, restrained or dazed: -1
..(save ends): -1
Take an OA when I normally wouldn't: -1
Immediately finish my turn: -1

If the power requires a specific prop (requiring the target be in a specific place, or the prop is destroyed after use): -1

The idea would be: The player says what he wants to do (ie - describes the outcome: "I swing from here and kick, and the ogre ends up engulfed within the blancmange!") and the DM works out what it does (inflict damage: +1, slide 1: +1, requires prop: -1, failure causes prone: -1), then choose a defense to target (shoving someone sounds like fort), adds 5 (to make the DCs work: is that right?) and gets the player to roll.

Most importantly the player doesn't get to custom build a power, it's in the DM's hands, just with some neat guidelines.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I think it's probably a good idea to have a DM-worked system for building up a DC, including bonuses and penalties, and require a zero sum.

Sooo

If I succeed, I will
Deal damage: +1
Inflict prone, slowed, deafened: +1
Inflict immobilized, blinded: +2
Inflict restrained, dazed: +3
...(save ends): double
Slide: +1/square
Ignore OA: +1

If I fail I will
Take damage: -1
Fall prone, become slowed, immobilized, blinded, restrained or dazed: -1
..(save ends): -1
Take an OA when I normally wouldn't: -1
Immediately finish my turn: -1

If the power requires a specific prop (requiring the target be in a specific place, or the prop is destroyed after use): -1

And how high is the starting DC? And how does it improve with the level of the target/monster? And what action does it take?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think it's probably a good idea to have a DM-worked system for building up a DC, including bonuses and penalties, and require a zero sum.

Sooo

If I succeed, I will
Deal damage: +1
Inflict prone, slowed, deafened: +1
Inflict immobilized, blinded: +2
Inflict restrained, dazed: +3
...(save ends): double
Slide: +1/square
Ignore OA: +1

If I fail I will
Take damage: -1
Fall prone, become slowed, immobilized, blinded, restrained or dazed: -1
..(save ends): -1
Take an OA when I normally wouldn't: -1
Immediately finish my turn: -1

If the power requires a specific prop (requiring the target be in a specific place, or the prop is destroyed after use): -1

The idea would be: The player says what he wants to do (ie - describes the outcome: "I swing from here and kick, and the ogre ends up engulfed within the blancmange!") and the DM works out what it does (inflict damage: +1, slide 1: +1, requires prop: -1, failure causes prone: -1), then choose a defense to target (shoving someone sounds like fort), adds 5 (to make the DCs work: is that right?) and gets the player to roll.

Most importantly the player doesn't get to custom build a power, it's in the DM's hands, just with some neat guidelines.

Meh, I hate "systems". The whole beauty of the 4e skill system in particular is the LACK of specificity. There's nothing for the players to argue about. The DM has a set of guidelines and even if your DM isn't the most subtle thinker on the subject of what is the ideal way to use skills and rule on stunts it will still work out OK in general.

I think the one area they could have examined would have been a DMG section that talked in detail about the skills and how they can be differentiated and most effectively used. I think that kind of thing would be more effective than a slew of charts and numbers that inevitably will produce silly results in some situations and so still need the DM to be just as sharp yet creates things for players to argue about.

 

[LostSoul]

I was just looking over my hack and it says that you'd roll against a DC set by the level of the opposition.

Here my rules:
[sblock]Based on the description of the action, the DM sets the DC for the action. Select the first that applies from the following list:

• You try to push, overpower, or manhandle someone: Fortitude
• You try to touch or tag someone: Reflex
• You try to attack someone's mind or convince someone of something: Will
• You try to hurt someone physically: Armour Class
• You are matching skills with someone: 10 + their skill modifier
• You are trying to do something else: DC set by the opposition’s level, using the table on page 42 of the DMG. A Hard result indicates a stunning success, a Moderate result indicates a marginal success, an Easy result indicates a marginal failure, and below Easy indicates a large failure.

[/sblock]

 

[Saeviomagy]

And how high is the starting DC? And how does it improve with the level of the target/monster? And what action does it take?

IIRC, then relevant defense + 5 should work. And I'd say that anything which is an attack (ie - causes something to happen to an enemy) is a standard and anything which doesn't is a move action. LostSoul's guide seems like a good one.

As for this being a system: It's a pretty quick little one. The main idea is to give some idea about what counts as a balanced acrobatic trick. You don't want to just say "ok, make an acrobatics roll to blind and damage your foe whenever you want" because that's better than the average encounter attack power.

Under my system, the DM goes "ok, so I think it will cause damage and blind the foe, which means it needs 3 points of negatives. situational, failure causes blinded and failure causes damage seems fair."

You just have too look at the number of "so what can an acrobatic stunt do?" questions to see that it's not an easy thing to adjudicate.