MadMaligor
First Post
Forked from: 4E, as an anti-4E guy ...
Forked...
Its not neccessarily a matter of belief when things are true.
Mini's have been in use in every edition, and have rule sets in every edition. To say they don't is to completely ignore specific text and pages of manuals/supplements. Its just that as I said, the cost effectiveness of marketing minis on the scale 4E has was not possible. Some of what you mentioned provides some insight into how and why that came about.
So many gamers gravitate to what is economical, and easy to use. Graph paper and pencils. That doesn't negate mini's or the battle grid and tactical combat. It mearly replaces them as a useful visual aid.
Some gamers refuse to believe that Dungeons and Dragons is a game that is meant to be played while using aids such as miniatures. I understand how that belief came to be, and you certainly dont have to use them. The interesting thing is just that though, its a belief. The facts are printed on the cover of the very first box produced, and in the manuals, supplements, magazines, and so on and so forth, even 2E (I am not at home but I will be more than happy to at some point reference pages, sourcebooks, etc...if you wish).
Heck you can play D&D without pencils, paper, even dice. I have seen it done and participated myself. That doesn't mean those aids weren't intended to be used while playing the game.
Raven Crowking said:
All too true......
Well, you can (and will) believe whatever you like. Miniatures wargaming was bigger when D&D first came out, and it was under that umbrella that D&D was best described. Again, it was certainly minis rulesets that were cobbled into the first rpgs.
At that time, miniatures battles were played on often elaborate tabletop landscapes, similar to those shown in the Battlesystem 2e products. Most of the miniatures available were for units, rather than for individuals. Indeed, were Gary & Co. to attempt to represent their characters using minis, one wonders where they would have gotten them from.
Around the time Tim Kask and Gary Gygax were working on dividing D&D into a Basic and an Advanced game, miniatures for rpgs had become a viable market, but there were still far more minis being sold for tabletop battles than for rpgs. Ral Partha was an early adopter, and did quite well. TSR signed a deal with Grenedier to produce official minis, and endorsed them in the AD&D books (while at the same time declaring them unnecessary). One might well imagine that the admonisions to buy only "official" minis was aimed at gaining some of Ral Partha's market share.
There were plans to produce products (similar to the modern Dungeon Tiles) when AD&D came out. They have been mentioned upthread. Interestingly enough, although TSR tried in several ways, interest in AD&D minis was not sufficient to ever produce said Dungeon Tile-like products. The idea was mothballed.
So rare was the useage of minis in AD&D 1e, that the language of minis was expunged in 2e. By the time Battlesystem came out for 2e, the writers assumed that the readers would need a painting guide as well as a guide to making terrain. This certainly wasn't true of the initial adopters of D&D, who were all tabletop gamers, who understood the language of miniatures, and who were able to understand the difference between using the language of miniatures and using the miniatures themselves.
In the most recent issue of Dragon Roots (#3), Tim Kask talks about learning how to play D&D from Gary, and the idea of wrapping his head around an imaginary space that no one could actually see. I guess he wasn't using minis and foamcore either.
That this jibes exactly with WotC's pre-3e market research should come as no surprise.
(In fact, Tim has some words for how the early experiences/rulebooks have been interpreted by some later adopters that certainly apply to this topic.)
Anyway, I, too, apologize for thread distruption. I'd be happy to discuss this topic on a forked thread, however.
RC
Forked...
Its not neccessarily a matter of belief when things are true.
Mini's have been in use in every edition, and have rule sets in every edition. To say they don't is to completely ignore specific text and pages of manuals/supplements. Its just that as I said, the cost effectiveness of marketing minis on the scale 4E has was not possible. Some of what you mentioned provides some insight into how and why that came about.
So many gamers gravitate to what is economical, and easy to use. Graph paper and pencils. That doesn't negate mini's or the battle grid and tactical combat. It mearly replaces them as a useful visual aid.
Some gamers refuse to believe that Dungeons and Dragons is a game that is meant to be played while using aids such as miniatures. I understand how that belief came to be, and you certainly dont have to use them. The interesting thing is just that though, its a belief. The facts are printed on the cover of the very first box produced, and in the manuals, supplements, magazines, and so on and so forth, even 2E (I am not at home but I will be more than happy to at some point reference pages, sourcebooks, etc...if you wish).
Heck you can play D&D without pencils, paper, even dice. I have seen it done and participated myself. That doesn't mean those aids weren't intended to be used while playing the game.
Hmmmmm
