Forked Thread: all about the minis!

[MadMaligor]

It exists.

One of Gygax's players is on the record as saying they didn't use miniatures, and it's explicitly written in 0E that the game does not assume the use of miniatures. Additionally, he said that the only reason the word "miniatures" is on the cover of OD&D is that the term "fantasy roleplaying game" was yet to be coined, and they didn't know what else to call it in order to differentiate it from non-hobby games.

I'm sure that that won't stop the assumptions and the wishful thinking to the contrary, though, even if in direct contradiction to the statements of someone who was there, and knew what the author intended. It's pointless discussing further, but just know that your assessment of "what seems likely" is on the record as being in error.

It seemed likely to me, too, so there's no need to defend your assumed stance to the hilt for fear of appearing a fool.

Hehehe, a fool I have been, and certainly shall be at some point in any variety of ways. This however is not one of those times. Again...let me say I understand exactly what he, you, and others have stated. I get that Gygax and other devs, players and DM's, thousands and thousands of times before, now, and forever in the future will not use mini's. I get that Dungeons and Dragons can be played, was designed to be played, and even now is played without mini's.

It is also designed to be played with mini's. It always has been, and likely always will be.

I don't know how much more specific I can get. Saying miniatures aren't supposed to be used is like saying Kobolds aren't supposed to be used, they just tossed them in there for kicks because everyone loves Kobolds. Sure you dont have to use them, you dont need to use them, some people just plain love to hate them. But the game has a place for Kobolds, and a place for mini's.

I find it very interesting, that Gygax and co. seemed to have such a distaste, dislike, or unrelenting passion against the use of minis...and then include so many rules and errata over the course of editions regarding them. As well as the countless images, both artistic and photo, of their use in the game (including many sourcebooks).

I really would love to see the quote or listen to the conversation that details the intent of the designers was to create a system that did not include the use of miniatures, or that their use was never intended, but rather completely unintended. If it exists and I am completely wrong, hell then I am completely wrong. I'm a big boy I can take it.

I wonder if his players or others close to him generated the idea in their heads that the game as played with him then, was how things were "meant to be". I find that interesting given the maleable nature of the game.

 

[rounser]

Hehehe, a fool I have been, and certainly shall be at some point in any variety of ways. This however is not one of those times.

You've been directly contradicted. You refuse to renounce your assumptions, even when they've been shown to be wrong by someone who knew Gygax and played in his games. There's nothing more to say, except I was right in my prediction that wishful thinking will prevail in the face of a witness to the facts. It's even written in black and white in the OD&D books, and still that's not good enough for you.

You said you were "waiting for a statement that says that", well you got it, and have refused to accept it. Your bluff has been called.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

We just finished Night Below and I seem to remember more than that...but maybe my DM was just really clever in reusing them.

The "Church" map wasn't the "End Boss" map. It was for the illithids.

4th time I've opened that box SINCE highschool. I'm pretty sure I didn't lose anything, although I very well could have.
I do recall seeing an "End boss" map that doesn't seem to be in the box, though it might have been the circle room with extra cut outs and photocpy terrain... my memory of shcool is vague at best.

 

[MadMaligor]

You've been directly contradicted. You refuse to renounce your assumptions, even when they've been shown to be wrong by someone who knew Gygax and played in his games. There's nothing more to say, except I was right in my prediction that wishful thinking will prevail in the face of a witness to the facts. It's even written in black and white in the OD&D books, and still that's not good enough for you.

You said you were "waiting for a statement that says that", well you got it, and have refused to accept it. Your bluff has been called.

Hehehe you are assuming a contradiction of a bluff that does not exist. Nor is my ego attached to this post in any way. Sorry if that spoils your plans but there is no bluff, nor do I have any agenda except to say that the statement that Dungeons and Dragons was meant to be played without miniatures is false.

It cannot be proven true even if concrete proof of Gary's thoughts revealed that he crafted a game designed to omit the use of miniatures. Because thinking and doing are two different things. Playing a game without miniatures does not alters its rule sets.

The game is built for both. Its just fact.

If one were to guage the use of mini's you might say each edition has its light, medium, or heavy mini use catagory. But its still mini's mini's everywhere!

You could possibly say that in some editions the use of miniatures was not implied, but rather an option. But you still could not say miniatures were not meant to be used.

Sorry if that contradicts what Gary's players have said or Gary himself (god bless and rest his soul) may have said or implied. I sincerely respect and am completely envious of anyone who has had the pleasure to play with him. That still does not make that statement true.

*edit* ps...why do I all of a sudden feel like a rules lawyer...I hate rules lawyers!! hehehe

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'm sure that that won't stop the assumptions and the wishful thinking to the contrary, though, even if in direct contradiction to the statements of someone who was there, and knew what the author intended. It's pointless discussing further, but just know that your assessment of "what seems likely" is on the record as being in error.

This.

Moreover, for those who imagine that "inches" were meant to be measured on a tabletop, I note that when using those Official AD&D minis mentioned in the 1e DMG, tabletop action does not scale that way. IOW, if you assume AD&D inches are tabletop inches, you will get some really wonky results.

Amusing, but true.

AD&D inches don't scale to any type of actual inches.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

But its still mini's mini's everywhere!

Even if over 40% of all gamers surveyed by the most massive and comprehensive poll ever done say that they have never used them!



You have strange uses of the word "everywhere".

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

The RAW is written in all its flawed glory on purpose. You can use the RAW just as it is and its perfectly reasonable to say "I'm playing D&D." You can also disregard just about any single rule you want too, and still say "I'm playing D&D." It is meant to be molded and shaped by the likes and dislikes of each DM and player group.

So, would you say that TSR didn't necessarily assume that players were using the grappling rules?

That TSR didn't assume players were using race restrictions?

That TSR didn't assume players were using psionics?

That TSR didn't assume players were using minis?

RC

 

[MadMaligor]

This.

Moreover, for those who imagine that "inches" were meant to be measured on a tabletop, I note that when using those Official AD&D minis mentioned in the 1e DMG, tabletop action does not scale that way. IOW, if you assume AD&D inches are tabletop inches, you will get some really wonky results.

Amusing, but true.

AD&D inches don't scale to any type of actual inches.


RC

It's interesting that you are quoting from an edition that uses the line "Each player might be required to furnish painted figures representing his or her player character and all henchmen and or hirelings in the game sesion"

Lets use your 40% and assume most games are using miniatures. That means a majority of gaming sesions use, if not require mini's.

Now if you look at the rules it talks about using mini's as a visual and tactical aid. It says to use them in scale to basically avoid confusion. There are no specific rules at that point to accomodate grid based combat other than to say they can be used in conjunction with products like Geomorphs to give players a good idea of where things are on the battlefield.

Years go by, the emphasis on mini's in 2E is reduced, then along come some optional rule sets for their use later on (probably because so many people were using house rules and there was a market for an official rule set). 3E comes and miniature use again has its ups and downs. Then along comes 4E and miniature use is once again in the spotlight (and likely a peak in use across many gaming tables).

Thats pretty much a crap load (excuse the french) of miniature use in Dungeons and Dragons. Again, I am not saying you had to use them, or needed to use them. But they were meant to be used.

So, would you say that TSR didn't necessarily assume that players were using the grappling rules?

That TSR didn't assume players were using race restrictions?

That TSR didn't assume players were using psionics?

That TSR didn't assume players were using minis?

I would say all of that was true.

And I would say that just the opposite of all of that was true. Because it is. The game assumes both things. The game assumes you can and probably will change rules. Thats why its such an awesome game. Everyone gets to play it the way they want, not just the way Gary wanted. The funny thing is, Gary made it that way, even if he didn't intend it to be (although I can't see how that is even remotely possible, they knew what they were doing, though some of the consequences may have been unintended). I don't know how I can put it any better than that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It's interesting that you are quoting from an edition that uses the line "Each player might be required to furnish painted figures representing his or her player character and all henchmen and or hirelings in the game sesion"

Interesting that you don't seem to notice that "might be".

Lets use your 40% and assume most games are using miniatures. That means a majority of gaming sesions use, if not require mini's.

Careful there.

Saying that almost 60% of gamers have used minis doesn't mean that they use them in the majority of sessions, or the majority of games. Disregard this, and you also "prove" that most folks LARP in most sessions.

All we can say with any certainty is that there is a very high number of folks who have never used them.

The number of people who always X is a subset of the number of people who ever X. It seems rational to me to posit that it is a smaller subset as well, as I am one of the people who have used minis, but not one of the people who always (or even regularly) use minis.

Again, you seem unable to distinguish between "The game assumes you can X" and "The game assumes you will X". No one is disputing that you can use minis with any edition (although I question their value in most encounters in most TSR-D&D campaigns).


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

I would say all of that was true.

And I would say that just the opposite of all of that was true. Because it is. The game assumes both things.

Just as an aside, the game assumes nothing. We are discussing what the designers assume. And, it makes no sense to say that the designers assume that you will and that you will not use minis, unless of course, by that you mean that "the designers knew that you might use minis, but didn't assume that you did".


RC