Forked Thread: HF vs. S&S gaming and rethinking my priorities

[thecasualoblivion]

EDIT- and a "sorry for the hijack" to the OP

No problem. I prefer making my own adventures, but were talking about the same things otherwise.

 

[DaveMage]

I brought it up not to hijack - but like the OP, I too am examining what style I want to play going forward. I was curious as to what you (JeffB) think are the best published adventures that fit your style of play.

I view the published adventure paths as something I would use if my players wanted the challenge of getting through them. In other words, they would know up front that it's what we were running and the purpose for playing would really be to see if they could "beat" the campaign.

However, I 'm really leaning toward running a game in true Wilderlands/sandbox style where the world is out there, and the players have to go get it! (And while I may provide a clue here or there about rumors of great danger or treasure, essentially, it's up to the players to go explore wherever they want.)

Finding good published adventure sites ("plug in and play") would make it easier for me to run such a game.

The old-school renaissance has made me rather introspective lately, and reading through Knockspell and Fight On has had me pondering campaign ideas.

 

[Rechan]

The timing of this post is intriguing. I am now working on a campaign sampler - I'm going to be starting a new group when I move, and I'll offer them 4 sample ideas of campaigns I'd like to run, and see what they think. Either vote on those, or the players decide what the campaign will be (by pitching ideas and agreeing).

One is Wraith Recon. Another is epic and sandboxy in the sense of "The world is beset on all sides and it sucks. Your job, as heroes, is to decide what you want to do, and try to make the world better". So it's goal driven, the PCs decide where they want to go, who they want to help, how they want to go about doing it, but it's definitely epic in the sense of changing the face of the campaign. The other is the PCs getting in charge of a colony and exploring the Lost Continent, with sandbox and event based plots. The fourth, I haven't decided yet.

If the players choose none of those, I'd like to do a themed campaign; everyone is members of a church, or a thieves guild, or something like that.

In any case, each one has wholly different feels and directions.

 

[Rechan]

As a sidenote, I really do think that Thunderspire can easily be turned into a sandbox underground.

 

[catsclaw227]

However, I 'm really leaning toward running a game in true Wilderlands/sandbox style where the world is out there, and the players have to go get it! (And while I may provide a clue here or there about rumors of great danger or treasure, essentially, it's up to the players to go explore wherever they want.)

Finding good published adventure sites ("plug in and play") would make it easier for me to run such a game.

I've thought about this as well, but I don't think that my current group would do well with this. They kinda like a (loose) set of rails to guide them. they like the AP paradigm as well, since they've stated explicitly that like the way the stories unfold and that, while they know they are on a "track" or path, they feel like they are part of making it.

It's true, though, that some are better than others. I ran a sandboxy game for 3.5 with Goodman's DCC 14: Dungen Interludes that worked well. It's six small adventures for levels 1-13 that can form a loose story arc and you can sandbox all around it. I put it in the Wilderlands and used Lost City of Barakus as the central point, substituting it for Warwick on the peninusla to the NE of the City State of the Invincible Overlord. That was fun. I was able to use the Barakus events and location based encounters as well as the DCC14 arc on top.

Good stuff.

 

[JeffB]

No problem. I prefer making my own adventures, but were talking about the same things otherwise.

I do too- to a certain extent. My examples, now that I look at them, were very much, plug and play as Dave states (below). In my "old age" I prefer books that are full of "seeds"-get my imagination going and I design something around it. 4Es' Nentir Vale, Eberron's Secrets of Xendrik, Recent work in Fight ON! Magazine among others. Many of those great old Chaosium products I mentioned were absolutely phenomenal and IMO still are pretty much the standard as far as "adventure supplements" go.

I I was curious as to what you (JeffB) think are the best published adventures that fit your style of play.

Def as you can see, most of mine are fairly small dungeons as far as old products go...."missions", if you will. With the Chaosium stuff I was just pulling this and that as it tickled my fancy- and thats they way they were designed to be used. They gave you a borad area (a city or "dungeon" or "wilderness"- sometimes all three) and gave you a few detailed scenarios, but mostly background, locations, and seeds. I also think Earthdawn's "Parlainth" and the idea behind it work very well for this kind of game.

However, I 'm really leaning toward running a game in true Wilderlands/sandbox style where the world is out there, and the players have to go get it! (And while I may provide a clue here or there about rumors of great danger or treasure, essentially, it's up to the players to go explore wherever they want.)

Yup, this sort of game is very fun and yes the OSR is full of products and advice designed around this "sandbox" theme, it's great no? It gives the DM a sense of "the unknown" as well, when the players do their thing and take you off in a direction you maybe were not really prepared for- sometimes you have to make up stuff on the spot! Not having a "script" is very liberating, but It requires a certain type of mindset from player & DM. When I was very young, 6th, 7th , 8th grade, I often ran diceless narrative games at lunchtime in school that were just like this- I came up with an idea and off we all went. I'm not that quick of a thinker though these days- a child/children will do that to you

 

[alleynbard]

As a sidenote, I really do think that Thunderspire can easily be turned into a sandbox underground.

An entire campaign can be built around Thunderspire, definitely. There is so much left undetailed that it practically begs to be run as a sandbox and not the "lead by the nose plot" the core adventure turned out being. Or, as you said before, "the princess is in another castle". I think that one phrase accurately describes why H2 deserves some DM attention.

In fact, at this point, I think my campaign is making that turn. The players seem to really like Thunderspire and, as a result, all of my hooks are pointing towards the Labyrinth. These hooks are all unrelated, so that bodes well for great adventure to come.

It is certainly a fantastic location for development. Not only can you add more "mini-dungeons" to the levels presented in the module, but you can add more levels deep into the Underdark. Add a few portals and you have access to the planes for upper level play. The Seven Pillared Hall has a sense of excitement that Winterhaven lacks. It feels dangerous and yet safe all at the same time.

If someone were to ask me what single adventure they should buy for 4e I would say H2, so long as they were willing to do some work and make it their own.

So, yes, I agree with your assessment. Not a big surprise though based on our previous conversations concerning the module.

But then, I think King of the Trollhaunt Warrens has the potential to be rather open as well. Sure, you have the overarching storyline, but the Trollhaunt could be a source of adventure for a very, very long time. And, once again, Moonstair is a fantastic town to adventure in.

 

[DaveMage]

I've thought about this as well, but I don't think that my current group would do well with this.

Yeah, the style one runs can certainly be affected by the players. If they don't embrace the style you like, you're fighting a losing battle as DM.

I'm not that quick of a thinker though these days- a child/children will do that to you

I'm certainly with you there.

My kids are still young (7 & 5), but lately I've been thinking about how I want to introduce them to the game in a couple of years. I've been playing for 29 years, and my favorite D&D system as a player is 3.5, however, I think that 1E (or maybe even core 2E) may be the best one to start my kids on as players. Very simple character rules and very easy for me as DM to shape their experience. (And, of course, that way they can play all the classic adventures too - in their original form!)

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

2. I'm thinking along the lines of a halfway point between adventure path and sandbox. Kind of an episodic, location based story. Instead of a big sandbox, a series of small sandboxes. Instead of an adventure path, focus the story episodically on events and locations which happen independantly from but can be influnced by player actions.

One of the reasons I was so happy to get Ptolus is because it's an awful lot like what you're talking about here. A ton of different things going on in the setting that the players can get involved in as they go around leveling up. It cuts a huge amount of work out of the GM prep.

The whole Adventure Path thing... I've heard people going on for years now about how awesome they are. The past couple of months I've been playing in one and I've got to say I personally am glad I never spent the money on them. It's nothing more than a series of linked railroads featuring "screw you" encounters. Nothing new.

For way too many years now, fantasy gaming has been focused on the Lord of the Rings model with some chump hoofing it across the continent to do Great Things. And of course Star Wars.

An awful lot of fiction though (like some of the aforementioned S&S/Pulp stories) feature the whole location based thing and feature characters that really don't change that much in terms of capability. For some reason though, this to gamers seems to be like Holy Water to vampires.

It's nice to see some folks are starting to change their minds.

3. Episodic breaks, not unlike pulp S&S novels. Keep character progression based on the treasure parcels system, but give out more treasure during the adventure, which by DM decree will be blown by the PCs(the PCs are encouraged to tell how this happens) before they start the next episode penniless and in search of adventure.

The big problem is, what's the point of treasure? Through history (and fiction) there's been a thread of whether or not money is a means to an end or if it should be an end in and of itself. Many religions (and others) feel that money should be a means to an end. An awful lot of S&S / Pulp fiction treat it as a means to an end as well.

Gaming treats money as an end in and of itself.

Fafhard & Grey Mosuer were always looking for a/the big score. But it wasn't so much for the money itself as what that money would get 'em. Women, wine, maybe some power. and of course, whatever interesting things happened to them in the course of pulling off their latest scheme.

I'm fine with characters starting adventures broke except for whatever special tools of the trade they've got (key to their character/character concept). The thing is though, you're probably going to need to do something to encourage that sort of buy-in from your players.

Most gaming has taught people to acquire as much stuff for their character as they can and never give it up. Back in the day, the GM was always taking your crap away from you in one fashion ("Make a save for your equipment as the fireball goes off...") or another ("I know... ok, all the characters wake up in jail with nothing and have to escape...").

I'd say either abstract out wealth (so money just isn't a big thing) or give some specific bonuses that encourage players to dump treasure/items. The trick is, you've got to encourage it. Some GMs try and do this, but they don't _really_ want to give a bonus so they screw around and then act all confused when players skip the option. You have to actually make it attractive.

Either that or...

Just say, "Look guys, I want to try and do something a bit different..." And then simply say that characters can get X kinds/amounts of equipment and mundane stuff (food, bags, etc) is "as much as the character needs". The treasure/item score at the end of the adventure just goes to pay off whatever random thing the character spends their off-time doing: maintaining a house, a business, gambling, whatever.

Of course, I don't know a thing about 4E, so it might be a bit more difficult to pull off. *shrug* But at least up through 3.x it's not especially difficult.

 

[Rechan]

Of course, I don't know a thing about 4E, so it might be a bit more difficult to pull off. *shrug* But at least up through 3.x it's not especially difficult.

Honestly, the only thing 4e uses money for is purchasing/making weapons, and buying/casting rituals (the 3e equivalent of spell component costs).

If you take out the need to buy/sell/make magical items, then money becomes abstract and arbitrary, unless you go out of your way to make things for money to be spent on ("How much is a keep? How much is upkeep on said keep?" etc).