Forked Thread: [Maybe this is where the magic went:] To the magic shop

[Imaro]

Write clearer. I submit to you that my interpretation of what you wrote is the most obvious one available to anyone who opens up this web page and reads the word on the screen.

...Add to that the standardization, lack of fluff, balance, placement in the PHB, etc. and yes you get a situation where magic is just blah...numerical bonuses and/or movement effects.

What isn't clear about the above...you know the part of my original post where I clarify that the identification of items is only one part of a larger whole

 

[Imaro]

Imaro, i´m happy for you that not knowing what a magic item did creates mystery and suspense in your campaign. For my players, the fantastic part starts once they know what the thing does. Of course, first they have to talk to the mysterious person at the magic shop.

But the minute he gives them something...they'll know everything about it. Wouldn't it be more mysterious if there was the chance he was a charlatan, perhaps an illusionist. Or the item they are buying is actually a cursed item, that he must get someone to willingly pay for in order to remove it from himself. Or better yet...he doesn't even know what the item does he's selling them. 4e's rules are problematic to say the least in this area is all I'm saying.

 

[Prism]

But the minute he gives them something...they'll know everything about it. Wouldn't it be more mysterious if there was the chance he was a charlatan, perhaps an illusionist. Or the item they are buying is actually a cursed item, that he must get someone to willingly pay for in order to remove it from himself. Or better yet...he doesn't even know what the item does he's selling them. 4e's rules are problematic to say the least in this area is all I'm saying.

I reckon you could cover all those will a little adaption. Maybe said illusionist has a ritual or some power that makes in item 'feel' like something different for a short period of time.

Although it doesn't elaborate I would have cursed items detect (ie 5 mins handle) as something else before they revealed their curse in a later encounter

And maybe some items are not detectable - just because they are not. That will certainly add some interest when all the main ones are

 

[Imaro]

I reckon you could cover all those will a little adaption. Maybe said illusionist has a ritual or some power that makes in item 'feel' like something different for a short period of time.

Although it doesn't elaborate I would have cursed items detect (ie 5 mins handle) as something else before they revealed their curse in a later encounter

And maybe some items are not detectable - just because they are not. That will certainly add some interest when all the main ones are

Oh, I understand it's not insurmountable, it was just further explanation on why I'm even less keen on 4e's magic item system than I was on previous editions, plus it opens the door up for the cries of "no fair" from players...especially when everything in the game starts to boil down to...A ritual did it. I guess I would have rather seen options for handling magic items presented instead of a default that just, IMHO, is this least imaginative of the myriad of possible ways they could have been handled. Really, is look at an item for 1 to 5 minutes and all it's secrets will be revealed the best that could be accomplished?.

 

[Prism]

Really, is look at an item for 1 to 5 minutes and all it's secrets will be revealed the best that could be accomplished?.

I wish some magic items did actually feel like they had 'secrets' any more

We treat all knowledge as metagame only so it doesn't really matter in our game. The fighter simply knows that this new sword feels better than his old one to swing and use. The fact it is +4 rather than +3 is just metagame knowledge. I always had a problem before wondering how a wizard actually identified such an item

Wizard - "its a magic sword thats a bit better than you last one"
Fighter - "I could have told you that"

The identify spell was a metagame spell that never really felt like it fitted. I'm glad now its far more likely to pick up an item mid adventure and then use it rather than waited until you frag them all back to a town and get them identified or buy some pearls and do it yourself

Having said that, we still find it amusing in our 4e games for the fighter to grab hold of a newly discovered wand and tell the wizard what its for...years of payback!

 

[Remathilis]

[setting plug]

One of the reason I loved Eberron was the fact it allowed for magic shoppes without requiring a lot of disbelief.

[/setting plug]

 

[Cadfan]

What isn't clear about the above...you know the part of my original post where I clarify that the identification of items is only one part of a larger whole

You can't defend a silly argument by attaching it to other arguments in the hopes that the aggregate will be transformed into something non silly. Logic doesn't work that way. This isn't like baking a cake, where a package of yeast might taste bad on its own, but be delicious in a cake, or a well cooked fish might be delicious on its own yet ruin the cake. You expressed a clear preference for old systems of magic item identification over new ones. These old systems were mechanistic- cast a spell, get a result. My questions about how older mechanistic systems are more "mysterious" than newer mechanistic systems still stands.

 

[billd91]

You can't defend a silly argument by attaching it to other arguments in the hopes that the aggregate will be transformed into something non silly. Logic doesn't work that way. This isn't like baking a cake, where a package of yeast might taste bad on its own, but be delicious in a cake, or a well cooked fish might be delicious on its own yet ruin the cake. You expressed a clear preference for old systems of magic item identification over new ones. These old systems were mechanistic- cast a spell, get a result. My questions about how older mechanistic systems are more "mysterious" than newer mechanistic systems still stands.

I thought Imaro was pretty clear, actually. And if you'll remember, identifying items in 1e wasn't exactly definitive. It took a long time and you had a % chance to identify magical properties. I don't believe there was any way to be certain you had ever identified all magical properties an item might have.
So, yeah, you could still have some pretty mysterious stuff on your hands even after identify had been cast.

 

[TwinBahamut]

In my (perhaps relatively limited) experience of playing D&D, the most "wondrous" item I ever acquired was something I bought in a shop. A magical shop. It had an enigmatic gnome(?) owner who manipulated his inventory with his own magic, vanished after I left it, and was generally unusually mysterious for what was, essentially, a book store. Said "wondrous" item was a mundane book, which happened to be nothing more than a fairly detailed encyclopedia of demonology (I was playing a warlock, so this actually become one of my character's most valued possessions).

There is nothing inherent to a set of stats in a game supplement that can possibly instill a "sense of wonder", create a mystery, or make something feel "magical". Either the DM does it, the players do it, or it doesn't happen. A magic shop can either be a boring "Magic Wal-Mart" or it can be the enigmatic shop in the corner of the market owned by a shriveled and cloaked figure who tries to con the players into buying a cursed monkey's paw, and it is entirely up to the DM. Either way, the raw existence of a magic shop doesn't change the "magic" of the magic items at all, for good or ill.

Honestly, I have seen one player place a great deal of importance upon the single gold coin he happened to have left after spending his initial character creation funds, turning that one, ridiculously common and mundane thing into a fairly important part of his character and the campaign (short-lived as it was). If that can happen in a 4E campaign, then it is possible to make anything wondrous and exciting, but it needs to be done by the people playing the game, not rules or fluff in a book.

 

[Hussar]

I have to admit, that as a DM, I LOVE the fact that my players handle their own wealth stuff. I no longer have to think about what treasure I toss into an adventure. If they like it, cool, otherwise, they'll just sell it and buy what they want. Great! Frees me up completely.

I'm a huge believer that your character is YOURS, not mine. I don't want to have any control over your character. I've got enough on my plate worrying about my own campaign thank you very much. You wanna have this and that item and it's not game breaking and you have the cash or kine to get it? Go for it.

It's up to the players to make their items interesting, not me. One of the more interesting items in the game right now is the scout's Glammered chain +1. He keeps changing clothes constantly. He's totally loving it.

Players make magic items magic, not any amount of setting wankery from me.