Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Except when he really pulls it off and misses, yet can't even try to pull it off anymore for 18 hrs...

He can try. He just will never succeed. The player knows better, the character might not. Or he just has the feeling he lost it and tries something different.

 

[Felix]

He can try. He just will never succeed.

I think this is at the heart of the issue for the folks who dislike mundane 1/day powers. Even given optimal conditions an attempted 1/day after it has been used will not work. Ever.

It is a metagame issue, and I imagine works very well to balance the game; in 3e the spellcasters had the 1/day resource management while martial types had (mostly) the at-will stuff, making balance issues over the 20 levels more difficult. I still contend that it doesn't make much in-game sense. Thus the suspension of disbelief issue.

 

[Steely Dan]

if you simply want to vent,

You and I, and everyone else who read my initial post knows it did not come off as venting.

It was just an observation, nothing more.

 

[Obryn]

When dailies are this tiring, then the fighter must get penalties for the rest of the combat. It having some condition as result of the strike which requires 6 hours to cure but being able to fight like nothing happened makes no sense.

You mean like how characters suffer progressively worse penalties as their hit points decrease?

Oh wait...

-O

 

[AtomicPope]

No, it can't.

You're choosing to show some highlights and overlook the typical - and even those really don't make your case.

Clearly I'm not. These highlights are taken from the best at what they do. Miguel Cotto is the undefeated Welterweight Champion of the world. He is anything but typical. Rumino Sato, although retired, was one of the greatest MMA submission specialists ever. He consistently submitted people faster than any other grappler in MMA, then or now. Mirko "Crocop" is possesses the most powerful kick ever tested. None of these guys are typical. Neither is any of the things they can do.

The spectacular "I've only seen that in demonstrations!" finishes might look cool, but in MMA they're the exception, not the rule - for every fight ended with a flying armbar, there's fifty fights in which a guy tried 5 or 6 times to sink an armbar before he finally got it.

Not true. I've trained at Beverly Hills jujistu when Bas Rutten, Mark Kerr, and Oleg Taktarov were all trainers. If someone fails three times they're not going to sink an armbar. What's going to happen is they're going to try and fail repeatedly and face a decision with only a string of failed submissions. The reasons are numerous. When you attempt a submission local muscle fatigue sets in quickly (in about 5-10 seconds). Fatigue to worked areas increases bloodflow and body temp causing sweat. Sweat alone makes it difficult to sink a sub but sweat and fatigue makes it nearly impossible. This (among others) is one of the reasons for adding additional submissions to a fighter's arsenal (of Daily and Encounter Powers).

You're basically just choosing to call whatever ends the fight a "Daily", and ignoring the fact that most of these people will be doing their "Daily" multiple times per round, until they land the big one - which doesn't make it a "reliable" Daily ability either, it just makes it the equivalent of an at-will that resulted in a critical.

Actually I'm not ignoring anything but I'm glad I got you using 4e terms to explain the situation Since we're using 4e terms now, you're ignoring the fact that a Daily Power does at least three times as much damage while simultaneously providing a lasting effect. Using it repeatedly until it lands is exactly what Reliable means. If Crocops highkick lands and doesn't KO the fight usually goes to a decision - fact. Tyson lost when his KO uppercut wouldn't land (Holyfield, Douglas, Williams).

What happened when Bernard Hopkins landed his infamous right counter-punch against Calzaghe? He knocked him down. He also never landed it again and lost.

What happened when Taylor counter-punched Pavlik with his lightning fast hook in round two? He staggered him badly. Then proceeded to expend all of his Action Points, Dailies and Enc powers. Five rounds later Pavlik staggers Taylor with his "Ghost of Tommy Hearns" straight right Daily and unloads his Enc arsenal to KO him in the seventh.

Attacking and landing an At Will won't finish the fight in most situations, even if it's a critical. It will register as a "Power Punch" if the damage is substantial enough. Which brings up the question - How do we determine whether or no a maritial exploit is ordinary or extraordinary (enc/daily)? The effect.

Most of the time, it's got more to do with luck than skill - fighters do the same thing over and over because it chips away at the enemy and they know that if they execute it well and patiently, they'll eventually be rewared when it lands flush.

It's pretty much the antithesis of focusing all your energy on the one big attack that you know will end the fight for you.

I've trained in Muay Thai at HITS in Citrus Heights where we would cross train with THE Pit (Liddel's Gym). I've boxed in the Marines. You're talking about the real world, not D&D. So we're not rolling dice anymore. Lucky shots don't exist in the real world. If you try it and it succeeds then luck was not a factor, it was skill. When skill is inadequate all of the luck in the world won't save you. Skill will provide you with the strength, speed, technique, and coordination to properly execute your manuever. Lacking in skill against a skilled opponent will result in a one-sided thrashing.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAaM_RyCZDM"]The One-Sided Thrashing of Undefeated KO Artist Gary Lockett[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tdQUi4gIog"]The One-Sided Thrasing of Contender Star Alfonso Gomez[/ame]

Both Cotto and Pavlik are undefeated champs. Both fought contenders with far less skill. Both ended the fight early and walked away without a mark. In D&D terms, with all of the punches thrown one of the contenders would have rolled a 20. However, any twenties rolled were not done so with an Encounter Power or Daily Power. Furthermore, as high level fighters Pavlik and Cotto have access to more Utility powers that allow the to negate attacks. They negated their Encounter Powers and Daily Powers then outworked the lower level fighters.

 

[mmadsen]

If someone fails three times they're not going to sink an armbar.

That is obviously false. There are countless fights where one fighter goes for the same submission multiple times before he successfully finishes the fight with it.

Lucky shots don't exist in the real world.

Of course they do. That's why it's called a "puncher's chance" at winning. A fighter has neither a 100% chance nor a 0% chance of landing a knockout.

Grappling is less random, but it's still not deterministic.

Each power would have to strain a particular muscle, independently of any other. And in some cases you would be too tired to execute a low level daily move twice, but perfectly able to pull off a high level one. Doesn't work for me.

Well said. It makes very little sense for a martial exploit to get "used up" via fatigue if you've got other martial exploits you can still use.

This is why I would have preferred a common power point pool. So you could use an encounter or low level power twice, but dailies and high level ones would cost more points. That would be easier to rationalize as fatigue, ki or whatever.

A common power point pool might model fatigue better, but I don't think exploits are about fatigue at all. They're about unlikely openings -- which can't be modeled as an in-game resource, because, in the game world, there's obviously no such resource to use up. They're a meta-game construct.

 

[mmu1]

Re: Atomic Pope

You can name drop all you want - it's not going to make you right. (And I'm sorry, but trying to lend your JJ experiences authority by mentioning Mark Kerr... doesn't really help. It's about as impressive as Dean Lister teaching boxing.)

You mention Liddell - but he's a poster boy for exactly the kind of thing I'm taking about. He'll sit back, throwing those huge overhand rights, and he'll usually miss or only land a glancing blow - but he'll keep at it, secure in the knowledge that eventually, he will land something solid and the fight will be over.

Sometimes that moment comes early, other times it happens in the middle of the 2nd round. Or, heh... and this is another good example of why "fighters never do the same thing twice" is utter nonsense... he never gets the drop on the other guy because he eats a couple dozen identical kicks to his ribs and lead leg instead, and ends up looking like tenderized meat.

 

[xechnao]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW7Cvr6LiJg

The list of real world examples can go on forever to support limitations on Martial Exploits.

These fights are not real. These guys do not fight for their lives or something -there is no survival-killer instinct there.

 

[AtomicPope]

That is obviously false. There are countless fights where one fighter goes for the same submission multiple times before he successfully finishes the fight with it.
Of course they do. That's why it's called a "puncher's chance" at winning. A fighter has neither a 100% chance nor a 0% chance of landing a knockout.

Grappling is less random, but it's still not deterministic.

You say it like it's common place. Provide an example. Please don't flood the thread with unsupported objections.

In 4e you can create a character that tries multiple moves over and over and is a complete failure. It's really easy Make a fighter with a Strength Penalty and give him Reliable Powers. Then choose feats and Utilities that allow you to regain powers. Voila! You've created a Tomato Can.

Grappling can be random. People have KO'd themselves in grappling. Example? Matt Lindland UFC 43.

The reality is when a commentator says, "he's going for an armbar!" usually they're just attempting to position themselves to sink a submission. Depending on position they will attempt the best submission available. From mount with one leg vined you're not going to armbar. Kimura, keylock, or even an arm triangle but not an armbar. Commentators will say, "he's going for an armbar!" unless those commentators are Rutten or Rogan.

They call it a "Puncher's Chance" because they have a known skill as a power puncher. They possess punching power that is tested in the ring. If someone never scored a knockout they wouldn't have a Puncher's Chance. They would have no chance

These fights are not real. These guys do not fight for their lives or something -there is no survival-killer instinct there.

Yeah, it's just like WWE. It's not like anyone has died in boxing, Muay Thai or MMA before


Totally unrealistic! Complete BS! I'm sure you could take any one of these guys in the street. (Puts on his movie voice) Where there's no rules except the rules of survival

 

[Delta]

Because I don't remember that being a complaint with regards to the barbarian rage, monk's stunning fist, etc. either.

Afterall, should the person playing the barbarian in 3e really have a problem suspending disbelief because of a daily limit? I wouldn't think so.

Of course, none of those limited 3E examples were actually 1/day.

1/day is more jarring than several-times-per-day.
More such abilities are more jarring than very few such abilities.