Forked Thread: Proposal: Minotaur Race from Dragon

[covaithe]

Some questions I find myself asking myself, and the answers.

Q: Does this proposal improve the balance of the races?
A: No. I've not seen any evidence that Minotaurs are not overpowered at the moment, and taking away Oversized won't improve the situation.

Q: Does this proposal make Minotaurs more fun to play?
A: Well, I can't read the article, since I'm too stubborn to pay WotC a subscription fee for a mostly-crappy product I don't really want. So it's hard to say for sure. But the general feeling I'm getting is a resounding "No"; the things Minotaurs get in exchange for Oversized aren't worth it.

Q: Does this proposal help to prevent balance problems in the future?
A: Maybe. The main problem seems to be the intersection of Oversized with Brutal weapons. I feel like we ought to address the problem at the Brutal end, rather than at the Minotaur end. For example: simply declare that oversized weapons cannot be Brutal, or that Brutal only changes the numerical value of one die, no matter how many dice your weapon rolls. Or we could implement Brutal using the equivalency Nerdytenor described, i.e. instead of 1d10 brutal 2, a craghammer's damage would be written as 1d8+2, and then we could allow them to be oversized as before, moving up to 1d10+2. I don't know if those are actually good ideas, I'm just brainstorming things that I think are preferable to a preemptive nerf on Minotaurs.


Despite the fact that I haven't read the article, I'm leaning towards a No vote on this one.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Some questions I find myself asking myself, and the answers.

Q: Does this proposal improve the balance of the races?
A: No. I've not seen any evidence that Minotaurs are not overpowered at the moment, and taking away Oversized won't improve the situation.

I'm assuming you meant to say "I've not seen any evidence that Minotaurs are overpowered at the moment..."?

Q: Does this proposal make Minotaurs more fun to play?
A: Well, I can't read the article, since I'm too stubborn to pay WotC a subscription fee for a mostly-crappy product I don't really want. So it's hard to say for sure. But the general feeling I'm getting is a resounding "No"; the things Minotaurs get in exchange for Oversized aren't worth it.

I can't read it either, but from what I can ascertain from the internets, I concur. What they give the minotaur in exchange for oversized isn't worth it, and probably leaves them behind other races.

A thought that occurred to me: on average, will the damage boost from Oversized outstrip the bonus damage given by Dwarven Weapon Training? I know that DWT costs a feat, but it's still a feat that minotaurs (or any non-dwarf) can't get. At low levels, I'd definitely say that oversized is not any better than DWT. If we're talking epic levels ... higher [W] plays in the favor of Oversized, whereas DWT doesn't scale, so it's probably retrained to Weapon Focus anyway. But is that unbalanced? Keep in mind that dwarves have piles of durability beyond minotaurs. Some food for thought.

Q: Does this proposal help to prevent balance problems in the future?
A: Maybe. The main problem seems to be the intersection of Oversized with Brutal weapons. I feel like we ought to address the problem at the Brutal end, rather than at the Minotaur end. For example: simply declare that oversized weapons cannot be Brutal, or that Brutal only changes the numerical value of one die, no matter how many dice your weapon rolls. Or we could implement Brutal using the equivalency Nerdytenor described, i.e. instead of 1d10 brutal 2, a craghammer's damage would be written as 1d8+2, and then we could allow them to be oversized as before, moving up to 1d10+2. I don't know if those are actually good ideas, I'm just brainstorming things that I think are preferable to a preemptive nerf on Minotaurs.

Brutal does need some special treatment for upgrading damage dice, especially if PCs are going to get large weapons, but in my opinion that's not the main issue (though it could be a significant one if we don't deal with brutal). The way I see it, oversized basically gives minotaurs a free superior weapon proficiency, which happens to stack with normal superior weapons. But, as others have noted, the minotaur isn't all sunshine and rainbows; you give up a fair bit of other versatility and racial goodies to get that little damage bump.

I think it's safe to say that a minotaur built purely for damage output will be a monster (hah! I'm so punny) in that regard, but will have weaknesses in other areas and be lacking in versatility. And, of course, they won't hit much more often than other races, if at all.

Despite the fact that I haven't read the article, I'm leaning towards a No vote on this one.

I think I'm leaning in the same direction. Of course, it would be better to actually read the article before voting.

 

[covaithe]

I'm assuming you meant to say "I've not seen any evidence that Minotaurs are overpowered at the moment..."?

Er, yes.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

A thought that occurred to me: on average, will the damage boost from Oversized outstrip the bonus damage given by Dwarven Weapon Training? I know that DWT costs a feat, but it's still a feat that minotaurs (or any non-dwarf) can't get.

...
The way I see it, oversized basically gives minotaurs a free superior weapon proficiency, which happens to stack with normal superior weapons.

So how about instead of giving Oversized Weapons for free, adding an Oversized Weapon Use feat open only to Minotaurs and Bugbears (and any other races that normally get it)?

 

[garyh]

So how about instead of giving Oversized Weapons for free, adding an Oversized Weapon Use feat open only to Minotaurs and Bugbears (and any other races that normally get it)?

Assuming the eventual bugbear article gives them something decent while it takes away Oversized, I'd be more than happy to then spend a feat to get Oversized. I don't mind paying for it in that situation, as I'd have whatever the article gives me, and I'd still get to keep one of the things I liked about the race at a reasonable cost (I see Oversized is about the same as Superior Weapon Proficiency power-wise).

I mean, really, a bugbear rogue using a rapier the size of a bastard sword and shurikens the size of dinner plates? What's not to like?

So yeah, I would be okay with this (although I don't think I'd want to pay the feat until the bugbear article is eventually released).

 

[Lord Sessadore]

So how about instead of giving Oversized Weapons for free, adding an Oversized Weapon Use feat open only to Minotaurs and Bugbears (and any other races that normally get it)?

I quite like this idea; it's an elegant solution. Something like this:

OVERSIZED WEAPON
Prerequisite: Bugbear or Minotaur. (Str requirement, maybe??)
Benefit: You may use weapons your size of one size larger than you as if they were your size.

Yes? No? Thematically I think a Str requirement (probably 13, maaaybe 15) would be cool, but it's probably moot - most bugbears or minotaurs who will use oversized weapons will be weapon-focused classes, and most of those characters will likely have high Str ('specially since both races get +2 Str).

 

[garyh]

I quite like this idea; it's an elegant solution. Something like this:

OVERSIZED WEAPON
Prerequisite: Bugbear or Minotaur. (Str requirement, maybe??)
Benefit: You may use Large sized weapons.

Yes? No? Thematically I think a Str requirement (probably 13, maaaybe 15) would be cool, but it's probably moot - most bugbears or minotaurs who will use oversized weapons will be weapon-focused classes, and most of those characters will likely have high Str ('specially since both races get +2 Str).

Looks fine, but I don't think it needs a Strength requirement.

1 - I'm not aware of any racial feat that has stat pre-req's.

2 - Any bugbear or minotaur that'll want Oversized will almost certainly already have a high Strength anyway.

Note my concern above about not requiring this for bugbears until a bugbear article is published, since in the interim the bugbear wouldn't be getting any other racial abilities in place of Oversized.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

New post for a new thought: Goring Charge. It sucks. There really is no two ways about it. It really stinks. So, I had an idea. Change Goring Charge thusly:

Goring Charge (Minotaur Racial Power)
Encounter
Minor Action, Personal
Effect: If your next attack this round with the weapon keyword hits, you knock the target prone.

This could be modified in any of a number of ways. Could give a damage bonus as well as knocking prone, could be a Free action instead of a Minor ... maybe keep the charging bit in there somewhere? Thoughts on that?

 

[Don Incognito]

so, not only are we NOT nerfing minotaurs, you're now suggesting that we, in fact, BUFF them.

 

[hafrogman]

Note my concern above about not requiring this for bugbears until a bugbear article is published, since in the interim the bugbear wouldn't be getting any other racial abilities in place of Oversized.

This seems perfectly logical. The new minotaur race would be approved as written. The bugbear race would stay the same until such time as there is another version, at which time the approval process would be put in place again.

And the feat would be added as a separate house-rule, technically unrelated to the race approvals.