Forked Thread: Proposal: Minotaur Race from Dragon

garyh

First Post
WRONG.

Or, at the very least, the evidence is inconclusive. The highest of the oversized PCs is only level 2, and nobody is going through the combat logs with a fine-tooth comb in order to make sure every PC is on the same level, damage-wise.

Well, I'm hardly claiming that Hrav proves bugbears "aren't broken." What I AM saying is that even if the Oversized races are so numerically superior to the regular races, it hasn't influenced the PC population of L4W. We have a VERY wide variety of PC races, and only one bugbear and three minotaurs. And humans, elves, and dwarves still are heavily represented, for example.
 

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JoeNotCharles

First Post
1 - I'm not aware of any racial feat that has stat pre-req's.

Drow Fighting Style from Dragon 367 requires Drow, Dex 15, and there are a bunch in Martial Power that require a specific Race and Class plus an ability (eg. Bracing Breath: Dragonborn, Fighter, Con 13; Brutal Teamwork: Dragonborn, Rogue, Str 15).

Heck, we don't even have a single wizard (that I know of) dropping an illusion from time to time, and that came out of an article that we all have access to.

Magnus Madiron (just approved) has Grasping Shadows.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are people waiting for level up so they can retrain.

Speaking of which, I need to make another thread...
 

garyh

First Post
Drow Fighting Style from Dragon 367 requires Drow, Dex 15, and there are a bunch in Martial Power that require a specific Race and Class plus an ability (eg. Bracing Breath: Dragonborn, Fighter, Con 13; Brutal Teamwork: Dragonborn, Rogue, Str 15).



Magnus Madiron (just approved) has Grasping Shadows.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are people waiting for level up so they can retrain.

Speaking of which, I need to make another thread...

Ah, yes. Forgot about the MP feats, somehow.

And yeah, most of the current wizards were created before Dragon #364 was approved.
 

Lord Sessadore

Explorer
Grigo Stickbug, recently approved gnome wizard, has a number of illusion powers too.

To Don, just to be clear: which changes are you in favor of? The Dragon 369 changes, or the changes proposed in the 2nd page of this thread?
 

covaithe

Explorer
There are indeed a large number of change ideas being thrown about. That's a good thing; keeping the conversation open is healthy. But at the moment, the only change that's been officially proposed is that we adopt the minotaur article as written.
 

Atanatotatos

First Post
Oh, heck I had lost this thread! Well, if you remember, I wasn't contrary to the Oversized racial feature. But, I ran a (shortlived, unfortunately) three-encounter combat-only game a while ago, and I'd say that, at 20th lvl (or,mid-high level anyway I think) the Oversized feature is a bit too good; not gamebreaking, mind you, but at that levels racial feature count much less so it is not as offset as it is at the low levels we're experiencing here; plus, when you have thre or four dailies and encounters, chance is you're rolling multiple dmg dice most of the time, so it becomes a damage boost a bit too good for what it costs you.
That said, the Minotaur race on Dragon is good and flavorful (I vaguely remember seeing a PP feature a bit too powerful tho) and if the Bugbear is treated equally well I'd say we can leave the Oversized for the Eternal defender...
 

covaithe

Explorer
Ata, can you clarify on how you thought Oversized was too good at 20th level? That kind of direct experience would be very helpful.
 

Atanatotatos

First Post
Uhm, well, not really too good. As I said it's not game-breaking in itself. However as I said the problem is that, at high levels, there's less offset of that advantage; that was my impression at least. In the previous thread I made a comparison between dwarves and minotaurs, and I said that dwarves were a way better race; but, I was thinking of very low levels, where sw as minor, dwarven weapon training, and the other benefits are really felt a lot; moreso than the bonus to dmg IMO.
However, as you go up in level, class features and feats start to outpace in importance racial benefits and feats; you have more encounters and daily powers and so you're much more likely to deal multiple dice of damage with each attack (which obviously benefits an oversized-weapon wielder). On the other hand, you can compensate you race's weaknesses with feats or class features, like a fighter choosing healing powers; hps are much higher and you companions can heal you more too; I'm thinking dwarf as a comparison again, but it can be expanded to other races, obviously.
What I mean is, while at low levels you're actually losing some great benefits for a single very good one, at higher levels the loss is less and less significant, while the advantages can only go up.
So I feel the Dragon minotaur is more in line with that; also, to the people that feel that goring charge is too weak: please look at the racial feats; for example, if you take the three good ones at heroic, you gain an at-will opportunity attack at +2 that deals 1d8 dmg, pushes the target 1 square and knocks prone: that is very good for heroic.
Beast within is good and Brutal ferocity is awesome: you're going to use an invigorating power with it, granted. Have you read the beastblooded PP? It's very good and flavorful, and too good too, maybe, infact.
These are my impressions; if you would like to take a look at the game I was referring to, there's a link in my sig (the elemental chaos one).
 

garyh

First Post
Ata, what do you think of the idea that's been tossed around of using the Dragon version of the minotaur, but allow Oversized as a racial feat for minotaurs (and eventually doing the same with bugbears)?
 

Atanatotatos

First Post
I don't like it. When a character has access to 18/19 feats in its career, what's the cost of it? Obviously, if you decide keeping Oversized is okay, then fine. But if it's too good, why having it exit the door just to enter from the window?
Honestly I don't care too much about this; if something doesn't break the game, I'm not too concerned about balance issues, and you yourself know as the other members of the MMC* that I've had no concern with Hrav. But, since we're talking mechanics, that's my point of view.


*Mostly Monstruos Crew
 

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