D&D (2024) The math of the GWF Fighting Style and why its as good as a +1 (and possibly better than defense)

[clearstream]

Ok, so this is a different way of looking at it, but here you go...

Key: this is a average "round to round" comparison of one style to another. A negative (-1) is good for the first style as it means they will deal enough damage to the other to defeat them with 1 round to spare (i.e. they are also 1 round away from defeat by their opponent style). This is the average result, always rounded up, since you can't have "part of a round"--you are either in it or not.

The red (1) means that style lost by just one round to the other style (again, on average).

A zero (0) means it comes down to initiative on the final round as to who hits and would likely defeat the other. In other words, the styles are pretty well even--luck is the factor.

View attachment 379060

View attachment 379063
(Note: I multiplied the sums by -1 to make them positive for the chart above.)

Dueling: d8 weapon and shield (+2 damage from style)
Defense A: d8 weapon and shield (+1 ac from style)
Defense B: 2d6 weapon, no shield(+1 ac from style)
GWF: 2d6 weapon, no shield (minimum 3 roll on d6s)
TWF: 1d8 weapon, 1d6 weapon (light)

Ranking order by specific levels:
Level 1
TWF
Dueling
Defense B/ GWF
Defense A

Level 5
Dueling
GWF/ TWF
Defense B
Defense A

Level 10
Dueling
Defense B/ TWF
GWF
Defense A

Level 15
Dueling
Defense B
GWF
TWF
Defense A

Level 20
Dueling
Defense B/ GWF
TWF
Defense A

Summary:
By column, Level 1 has TWF clearly beating most others and tying Dueling style. The additional attack via the bonus action is obviously the main factor early on in the game.

However, by 5th level when everyone has Extra Attack, the combination of the bonus damage from Dueling along with the shield vaults it into the lead position, where it over all remains, althougth TWF remains strong compared to the others. We see Defense B and GWF starting to come into play as contenders.

By tier 3 (15th level and earlier, really), TWF starts to fall short compared to Defense B and GWF where the higher damage of the heavy weapons given so many attacks begin to really beat out TWF.

Final Thoughts:
It seems to me that TWF is a good way to go early on if you won't use your bonus action for anything other than the additional attack. Now, as I understand it in 2024 (but I could be wrong since I am not really following it), using your bonus action for the additional attack is no longer a requirement...?

Regardless, in a head-to-head competition, Dueling is best over all once Extra Attack comes online at 5th level.

However, both Defense B and GWF offer opporunities for real knock-down hits giving the high damage potential of the 2d6 weapon, so can be very appealing and are decent over all other wise.

Obviously, Defense A is the loser all the time. If you want to go sword and board, DO NOT TAKE Defense style! The +1 to AC is just not worth the damage bump IMO. However, if you plan to be more versatile (doing ranged), than it can be solid. Of course, if you plan to be primarily ranged... you go with Archery style.

Notes on the sim:

• At level 1 I assumed +3 STR and +3 CON, at level 5 those increased to +4, and at level 10 were +5.
• Level one use chain mail armor not plate. However, at level 5 and thereafer plate armor is assumed.
• Critical hits ARE factored in.
• Initiative is 50/50 for which style goes first. No ties.

It strikes me that a significant caveat is going to be that in play, PCs do not normally face off against PCs (or NPCs with like-for-like character classes). So as modelled, the damage declination for high ACs isn't going to be as palpable as it will often be at the table.

5th level fighter setup as you have will be +4 +3 = +7 to hit vs AC 21 = needs 14+, while I think the MM creatures that would be appropriate foes for that level will be around +5 which declines damage from *35% to *25% which is nearly a one third improvement. Or as often +4 which will be getting toward halving. Against that, taking damage doesn't have the same cost in 5.5e as in 5e, due to the increases to healing.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Final Thoughts:
It seems to me that TWF is a good way to go early on if you won't use your bonus action for anything other than the additional attack. Now, as I understand it in 2024 (but I could be wrong since I am not really following it), using your bonus action for the additional attack is no longer a requirement...?

It's incredibly intricate for reasons I don't really fathom. I don't know why they seem to oscillate between TWF being extremely simple and extremely complicated.

There's the Light weapon property, which is where the two-weapon fighting base rules exist now:

"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."

There's the Nick weapon mastery that says:

"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."

Here is the Weapons Table. Scimitar and dagger are both Nick weapons. I suspect that Scimitar + Shortsword may become the go-to selection, however, since you can potentially benefit from both at once.

Furthermore, the Dual Wielder feat supposedly says (in part):

"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative."

And the Two-Weapon Fighting Style feat says:

"When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage."

And the wording of the TWF style feat, by my reading, adds the ability modifier to the damage of the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder. It uses language identical to the Light property.

So by my estimates, at level 4 a character with all of the above and scimitar + shortsword can:

1. Attack with shortsword for 1d6 + mod, possibly triggering vex.
2. Attack additionally with scimitar as a part of the same action (nick) for 1d6 + mod (TWF style).
3. As a bonus action, attack with shortsword (dual wielder) for 1d6 + mod (TWF style), possibly triggering vex again.

Supposedly, Crawford has said that this is, indeed, how it's intended to work.

Honestly, I don't really like how noodley these rules are. Also the fact that you now need a feat to have the traditional main gauche style of rapier + dagger is kind of annoying... but it was never good in the past, either, so whatever I guess.

 

[ezo]

Honestly, I don't really like how noodley these rules are. Also the fact that you now need a feat to have the traditional main gauche style of rapier + dagger is kind of annoying... but it was never good in the past, either, so whatever I guess.

Yeah, it is insane and annoying and why my analysis doesn't really care about the bulk of 2024 rules. I only used the GWF from 2024 because it was in the OP.

 

[Dausuul]

It's incredibly intricate for reasons I don't really fathom. I don't know why they seem to oscillate between TWF being extremely simple and extremely complicated.

There's the Light weapon property, which is where the two-weapon fighting base rules exist now:

"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative."

There's the Nick weapon mastery that says:

"When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn."

Here is the Weapons Table. Scimitar and dagger are both Nick weapons. I suspect that Scimitar + Shortsword may become the go-to selection, however, since you can potentially benefit from both at once.

Furthermore, the Dual Wielder feat supposedly says (in part):

"When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative."

And the Two-Weapon Fighting Style feat says:

"When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren’t already adding it to the damage."

And the wording of the TWF style feat, by my reading, adds the ability modifier to the damage of the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder. It uses language identical to the Light property.

So by my estimates, at level 4 a character with all of the above and scimitar + shortsword can:

1. Attack with shortsword for 1d6 + mod, possibly triggering vex.
2. Attack additionally with scimitar as a part of the same action (nick) for 1d6 + mod (TWF style).
3. As a bonus action, attack with shortsword (dual wielder) for 1d6 + mod (TWF style), possibly triggering vex again.

Supposedly, Crawford has said that this is, indeed, how it's intended to work.

Honestly, I don't really like how noodley these rules are. Also the fact that you now need a feat to have the traditional main gauche style of rapier + dagger is kind of annoying... but it was never good in the past, either, so whatever I guess.

In 2014, dual wielding was straightforward. Pick up two light weapons and you get an off-hand attack with your bonus action, but you can't add your attack stat to the damage. Take TWF and you add your attack stat normally. Take Dual Wielder and you get +1 AC and can use non-light weapons. Power-wise, it was:

• Overpowered at very low levels.
• Roughly equal to great weapon damage at mid-levels, but at the cost of your bonus action.
• Underpowered at high levels.

In 2024, dual wielding has a ton of new rules and moving parts, whose interactions must be parsed out with lawyerly precision. When everything is added up and all the components are accounted for, the result is:

• Overpowered at very low levels.
• Roughly equal to great weapon damage at mid-levels, but at the cost of your bonus action.
• Underpowered at high levels.

This is one of the bigger disappointments of the new edition to me. I was looking forward to dual wielders finally playing on a level field with the other styles. Instead, they're no better than before and require a lot more nitpicky bookkeeping.

 

[Charlaquin]

In 2014, dual wielding was straightforward. Pick up two light weapons and you get an off-hand attack with your bonus action, but you can't add your attack stat to the damage. Take TWF and you add your attack stat normally. Take Dual Wielder and you get +1 AC and can use non-light weapons. Power-wise, it was:

• Overpowered at very low levels.
• Roughly equal to great weapon damage at mid-levels, but at the cost of your bonus action.
• Underpowered at high levels.

In 2024, dual wielding has a ton of new rules and moving parts, whose interactions must be parsed out with lawyerly precision. When everything is added up and all the components are accounted for, the result is:

• Overpowered at very low levels.
• Roughly equal to great weapon damage at mid-levels, but at the cost of your bonus action.
• Underpowered at high levels.

This is one of the bigger disappointments of the new edition to me. I was looking forward to dual wielders finally playing on a level field with the other styles. Instead, they're no better than before and require a lot more nitpicky bookkeeping.

They keep up if you allow them to take full advantage of the weapon swapping rules. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Dausuul]

They keep up if you allow them to take full advantage of the weapon swapping rules. Just throwing that out there.

That's crossing well over the line into "rules exploit" as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Charlaquin]

That's crossing well over the line into "rules exploit" as far as I'm concerned.

I don’t agree, but just saying, it does allow dual-wielders to keep up with 2-hand fighters at high levels.