D&D (2024) The math of the GWF Fighting Style and why its as good as a +1 (and possibly better than defense)

[EzekielRaiden]

Doesn’t appear to be worded the same way in 2024. I believe it applies to all damage dice in 2024.

That would be a...highly unusual rule reversal. Are you sure that that is what is intended? What text I have available simply seems like they were trying to shorten the text and simplify the effect, without changing its meaning (other than, obviously, the "treat 1 or 2 as 3" rather than "reroll 1 or 2 and keep it"). That is, this is the 5.0 text:

When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.

And this is the text from what sources I have available regarding 2024 rules (this may be playtest material, I'm not 100% sure):

When you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon that you are holding with two hands, you can treat any 1 or 2 on a damage die as a 3. The weapon must have the Two-Handed or Versatile property to gain this benefit.

This doesn't seem, to me, like it in any way obviously indicates "ALL damage dice on the attack, no matter what." I would be very surprised to hear that the intent was clearly to make it apply to absolutely everything involved in that attack, when the intent of the original wording explicitly wasn't. But, again, perhaps I have outdated text here. Can you provide correction, if so?

 

[ezo]

@ezo can you run a defensive duelist (should just be the same as increasing ac) vs GWM version through your sim?

What do you mean by "defensive duelist", since in my terminology that would be someone having both the Defense style and Dueling style.

If that is what you mean, then the +1 AC bump from the Defense style will make them even "more better" than Duelist is already vs. GWF. It bumps the "defensive duelist" win % from 53% to 65%.

If you meant something else, just clarify and I will run it when I can.

Does the ranking change at levels the game is more often played. Levels 5 and 9, say?

I can run those tomorrow probably... maybe today but we'll see. I would expect the order to change regarding TWF, since at lower levels and with fewer attacks, the bonus action additional attack will start to weigh more heavily.

 

[clearstream]

This doesn't seem, to me, like it in any way obviously indicates "ALL damage dice on the attack, no matter what." I would be very surprised to hear that the intent was clearly to make it apply to absolutely everything involved in that attack, when the intent of the original wording explicitly wasn't. But, again, perhaps I have outdated text here. Can you provide correction, if so?

You're probably right, but if it does then rerolling d4s become relevant for some classes.

 

[FrogReaver]

What do you mean by "defensive duelist", since in my terminology that would be someone having both the Defense style and Dueling style.

If that is what you mean, then the +1 AC bump from the Defense style will make them even "more better" than Duelist is already vs. GWF. It bumps the "defensive duelist" win % from 53% to 65%.

If you meant something else, just clarify and I will run it when I can.

Asking about the defensive duelist feat (pb ac boost as reaction) vs the great weapon master feat (just the pb damage part)

 

[Asisreo]

Asking about the defensive duelist feat (pb ac boost as reaction) vs the great weapon master feat (just the pb damage part)

I'll also try running these sims with those adjustments. I've already changed a few parameters to imitate those feats and fighting styles.

Its actually pretty much as you'd expect. Sword-and-board survives about twice as many fights as Greatsword user, but Greatsword user ends fights about twice as fast.

Take this with a grain of salt as I just quickly changed those parameters, but I'll (hopefully) have a graph displaying these differences either today or tomorrow.

 

[FrogReaver]

Its actually pretty much as you'd expect. Sword-and-board survives about twice as many fights as Greatsword user, but Greatsword user ends fights about twice as fast.

I actually expected double survivability but only about 50% increase in greatsword

 

[ezo]

Asking about the defensive duelist feat (pb ac boost as reaction) vs the great weapon master feat (just the pb damage part)

Oh. Sure, if you want to post what the feats do in more detail as I am not familiar with the 2024 versions. I'm playing tonight, but I should be able to run it tomorrow.

 

[Ashrym]

I was given to understand that GWF exclusively applied to the dice of the actual weapon itself. Wasn't that a "rules clarification" that was handed down during 5.0 at some point? I swear I remember it and people being Rather Annoyed about it.

Edit: Yep. Back in 2015, when Crawford's tweets were still canonical rule clarifications, rather than <things Mr. Crawford does at his own table that have no actual bearing on anything else,> he explicitly said that GWF only applies to the weapon's actual damage dice, not Smite damage nor other sources of bonus damage on a weapon attack (e.g. Battle Master maneuvers). The one exception is magical weapons, e.g. flame tongue, because the extra fire damage dice are part of that weapon, not a bonus effect tacked on top.

A lot of those abilities add to the weapon damage or attack damage in their wording. They should apply.

 

[ezo]

Does the ranking change at levels the game is more often played. Levels 5 and 9, say?

Ok, so this is a different way of looking at it, but here you go...

Key: this is a average "round to round" comparison of one style to another. A negative (-1) is good for the first style as it means they will deal enough damage to the other to defeat them with 1 round to spare (i.e. they are also 1 round away from defeat by their opponent style). This is the average result, always rounded up, since you can't have "part of a round"--you are either in it or not.

The red (1) means that style lost by just one round to the other style (again, on average).

A zero (0) means it comes down to initiative on the final round as to who hits and would likely defeat the other. In other words, the styles are pretty well even--luck is the factor.

(Note: I multiplied the sums by -1 to make them positive for the chart above.)

Dueling: d8 weapon and shield (+2 damage from style)
Defense A: d8 weapon and shield (+1 ac from style)
Defense B: 2d6 weapon, no shield(+1 ac from style)
GWF: 2d6 weapon, no shield (minimum 3 roll on d6s)
TWF: 1d8 weapon, 1d6 weapon (light)

Ranking order by specific levels:
Level 1
TWF
Dueling
Defense B/ GWF
Defense A

Level 5
Dueling
GWF/ TWF
Defense B
Defense A

Level 10
Dueling
Defense B/ TWF
GWF
Defense A

Level 15
Dueling
Defense B
GWF
TWF
Defense A

Level 20
Dueling
Defense B/ GWF
TWF
Defense A

Summary:
By column, Level 1 has TWF clearly beating most others and tying Dueling style. The additional attack via the bonus action is obviously the main factor early on in the game.

However, by 5th level when everyone has Extra Attack, the combination of the bonus damage from Dueling along with the shield vaults it into the lead position, where it over all remains, althougth TWF remains strong compared to the others. We see Defense B and GWF starting to come into play as contenders.

By tier 3 (15th level and earlier, really), TWF starts to fall short compared to Defense B and GWF where the higher damage of the heavy weapons given so many attacks begin to really beat out TWF.

Final Thoughts:
It seems to me that TWF is a good way to go early on if you won't use your bonus action for anything other than the additional attack. Now, as I understand it in 2024 (but I could be wrong since I am not really following it), using your bonus action for the additional attack is no longer a requirement...?

Regardless, in a head-to-head competition, Dueling is best over all once Extra Attack comes online at 5th level.

However, both Defense B and GWF offer opporunities for real knock-down hits giving the high damage potential of the 2d6 weapon, so can be very appealing and are decent over all other wise.

Obviously, Defense A is the loser all the time. If you want to go sword and board, DO NOT TAKE Defense style! The +1 to AC is just not worth the damage bump IMO. However, if you plan to be more versatile (doing ranged), than it can be solid. Of course, if you plan to be primarily ranged... you go with Archery style.

Notes on the sim:

• At level 1 I assumed +3 STR and +3 CON, at level 5 those increased to +4, and at level 10 were +5.
• Level one use chain mail armor not plate. However, at level 5 and thereafer plate armor is assumed.
• Critical hits ARE factored in.
• Initiative is 50/50 for which style goes first. No ties.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I suppose ideally, you would want to perform a calculation that includes the feats and mastery that also supports the style.
GWF style might not match up well with the other styles in power, but it is almost always going to be combined with a mastery (Graze for the Greatsword is probably the easiest to calculate) and then the GWM feat.

Likewise Duellist style is a better damage increase on its own, but may not be able to increase as much as other styles due to masteries and feats not boosting damage as much.