Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[SweeneyTodd]

3 pages later, no one has tounched this one yet.

Wizards can fly in combat 3e. Wizards can fly in combat 4e.

So how exactly did they fix flight?

At level 4, a wizard can levitate and then move 1 square/turn for one encounter, once per day.

At level 16, he can do that plus fly 8 squares/turn for one encounter, once per day.

In 3rd, fly lasted longer, and if you wanted to memorize enough copies to keep the entire group aloft, you could do as many as you had 3rd+ lvl spell slots.

It is *slightly* different.

 

[The Little Raven]

It is *slightly* different.

3e: Fly learned at level 5, lasts 1 minute per level (minimum of 5 minutes when you learn it), gives a fly speed of 12 squares with no restrictions on positioning.

4e: Levitate (not Fly) learned at level 6, lasts until end of encounter or five minutes (if sustained, at the cost of a move action each round), sorta gives a fly speed of 1 square (if sustained) and requires you to be 4 squares (or less) above the ground, gives you a -2 penalty to AC and Reflex.

4e: Fly learned at level 16, lasts until the end of your next turn (unless sustained, at the cost of a minor action each round, in which case it lasts until the end of the encounter or five minutes), and gives you a fly speed of 8 squares with no restrictions on positioning.

It's a bit more than slight differences.

 

[Vocenoctum]

At least one person following this thread agrees with you! I think this is an excellent rhetorical point which has not really been addressed by the defenders of fly.

Because the points have been addressed over and over. A combat spell with different levels of damage is a decision of equilizing the power of the spell for it's level. A 1d10 fireball and a 10d10 fireball are both fine, but one is higher level.

Flight was removed in favor of a tactical version of flight. It is a once per day affair and is not useful for long distance flying. It's not just the Fly spell, a flying carpet can only hover slightly above the ground. Teleport is the travel option now, which of course eliminates all the encounters in between, rather than just bypassing some.

Part of the problem also, is the rule against having more than 1 of the same power memorized for a Wizard. If I'm walking around Sharn, I can still only keep one Feather Fall on me at a time.


As for points that are not addressed by "the opposition", I haven't seen much discussion about the teleport answer to flight's "problem", just as everyone glossed over the 3.5e design decision of ADDING flight in tons of places.

If freeform flight was such a problem for 3e, then why give the warlock unending flight? Sure the entire party isn't flying, but then the combat advantage really only applies to a caster/ missile attack guy.

(I had a dragon riding gnome in 3.5, charging and meleeing meant flight's advantage was reduced. It still gave me some advantages of course, but since things aren't free, that power came from somewhere.)

 

[Imaro]

Just a quick note...

Actually the whole party can fly in 4e...Cloud Chariot is a cleric power. It functions until dismissed or an extended rest is taken. So the whole party can fly all day long with this power.

The Cleric also has a flight power he can use on others called Angel of the Eleven Winds.

I think the flight problem arises because a DM is not taking into consideration the abilities a group has. This has nothing to do with it existing in a game or not. In the Ogre example... modify them to have ranged attacks that are effective or choose a new monster. This is like saying Golems, Purple Worms, and other monsters (that are all viable challenges level wise for a party with flight abilities) suck, because the party can fly over it... well yeah so how is this an edition specific problem, and how did 4e in any way solve it?

Edit: Sorrowsworn and Gorgons can fly..my bad. So I chose a new example.

 

[Xath]

Ironvyper, when you return from your vacation, I encourage you to read the rules of ENworld.

 

[pemerton]

Teleport is the travel option now, which of course eliminates all the encounters in between, rather than just bypassing some.

Which is fine. The problem with cheap low-level fly is not the travel issue, but the tactical advantage it gives in combat and in physical challenges.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

I was under the impression that you could only transport to predefined areas with Teleport in 4E, and that it was not generally possible to teleport into a 'seen once' type of place.

Am I wrong? I hope not; I think 3E teleportation needed some serious reigning in.

And the cleric chariot power...well if true, I am really disappointed.

Ken

 

[AllisterH]

I was under the impression that you could only transport to predefined areas with Teleport in 4E, and that it was not generally possible to teleport into a 'seen once' type of place.

Am I wrong? I hope not; I think 3E teleportation needed some serious reigning in.

And the cleric chariot power...well if true, I am really disappointed.

Ken

You can teleport somewhat blind, but that requires the True Portal ritual which is a LEVEL 28 ritual. Furthermore, the whole "it's hazy" concealment angle pretty much puts the kibosh on the teleport in and kill the BBEG tactic.

As for Chariot Power, again, this is a level 22 power (big difference between a level 22 power and a level 5 power) and basically has the same limitations as your classic Chariot of Sustarre.

 

[Fenes]

As for Chariot Power, again, this is a level 22 power (big difference between a level 22 power and a level 5 power) and basically has the same limitations as your classic Chariot of Sustarre.

Didn't people say bumping up the Fly level just delays the problem?

 

[Fifth Element]

Didn't people say bumping up the Fly level just delays the problem?

The higher the level, the less likely monsters and other challenges can be bypassed easily by flying, since said monsters and challenges are higher level as well.

But yes, I think that's true to some extent.