D&D 4E Forked Thread: Some Thoughts on 4e

Well, with a fighter in the party, I'm a fan of the melee archer.
Rangers get prime shot .. they can also flank with a bow.
Provoking from a marked target is fun for the fighter.
The build takes a fair number of interrupts, too .. with which to protect yourself from getting swarmed.

High risk, higher carnage.
:D
 

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Its pretty consistently ~50%.

Your data is misleading.

Look at first level through fourth level. Take out the Cantrips (which are rarely used in combat) and it's 0% of the spells used are combat. Including the cantrips is extremely misleading.

5th level, 1 out of 6 spells available is non-damaging. But with 5 encounters of 6 rounds each, that's either 1 spell in 30 cast that is non-damaging or 5 spells (if all used) in 30 cast. A lower percentage if combat averages more rounds per encounter.

It's not until 16th level that a second Encounter utility power is available (most Paragon encounter spells are attack). That's a lot of levels of 1 to 5 max Encounter Utility spells (of one spell type per day) being cast per day. 4 levels of none of them and 11 levels of one of them. Max.

There is a major difference between which spells are on the list and how often they can be cast. With so few Encounter Utility spells (2 max per day), it really means that an extremely high percentage of spells cast per day will be damaging ones, even if the Wizard takes every possible Utility spell and casts it as often as possible.

This can be offset a small amount with magic items (maybe 3 or 4 total cast per day at heroic level), but even there a lot of abilities are ones designed to improve a damaging power.
 

"We are getting killed here, do something Wizard" "Ok, I'll use my Knock scroll to open this back door here so that we can run, oh, nevermind. I cannot use miscellaneous spells in combat, guess I'll use Scorching Burst yet again"

How about,
Cleric: "We're getting killed here and I'm running out of healing magic.
Someone one do something!".
Rogue: "I'll try to pick the lock on the back door, then we can make a get away."
Fighter: "If you fail I'll try using brute strength to bust it down. Untill then I'll cover you."
Wizard: "Sounds like a plan. Everyone fall back to the door, I'll use web to slow them down."

Not every problem that doesn't involve killing should mean turning to the wizard to solve it.
 
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Your data is misleading.

How is the data misleading when he has a whole column devoted to the percentage chance without the Cantrips? The supposed "flaw" you noticed was already pointed out and accounted for when he presented the data.

Now you're just being nitpicky. And if you want to get technical, he could include the rituals, which are pretty much ALL non-combat/non-damaging abilities. A huge majority of them are based on the Arcana skill, which is a Wizard's bread and butter, and the Wizard even gains new rituals for free!
 

Well, some people don't consider an ability valid if it takes too long or costs valuable coin.
Rituals may be awesome, but due to a couple of issues, some players will never use them.
 

Your data is misleading.

Look at first level through fourth level. Take out the Cantrips (which are rarely used in combat) and it's 0% of the spells used are combat. Including the cantrips is extremely misleading.

Just because you don't like the spells, doesn't mean they don't count. Just because you can't think of goos uses for these spells, doesn't mean they don't exist. Are you doing to use them as much as Magic Missile? No. But there are good uses for them in and out of combat.

And I'm not sure how you can say I was misleading when I included a column that removes the cantrips from the calculations, and in the very next sentence after the one you quoted said that if you don't count the cantrips then yes you start with 0% non-damaging skills but that it increases to 33.% at level 30.

Oh and just to be clear, when making up my chart I assumed that a player would always select a damaging spell over a non-damaging spell. Meaning the only non-damaging spells in the chart are Utilities and Cantrips.

5th level, 1 out of 6 spells available is non-damaging. But with 5 encounters of 6 rounds each, that's either 1 spell in 30 cast that is non-damaging or 5 spells (if all used) in 30 cast. A lower percentage if combat averages more rounds per encounter.

Well, if we're going game day suggested in the book, than 1-2 of those encounters should be non-combat encounters anyway. Hmm, not sure what my point was here.. oh, that its only 18-24 casts.

Also during that day, you may have likely had Light at least say for an hour. With a 5 min duration, that means you would have cast it 12 times. But hopefully doing this is "off-screen", so we won't count it.

There is a major difference between which spells are on the list and how often they can be cast.

And there is a difference between how often they are cast, and how much they effect a combat. You may cast Wall of Fog once in a combat, then spent the rest of the fight sustaining it and casting Magic Missile or Scorching Burst. Which has more effect on the encounter?

Its really too situational and subjective to give a definite answer. But then again so it how many times you would cast X type of spell in a gaming day, since the length of a gaming day depends on many things.

With so few Encounter Utility spells (2 max per day), it really means that an extremely high percentage of
spells cast per day will be damaging ones, even if the Wizard takes every possible Utility spell and casts it as often as possible.

Really this whole damaging vs non-damaging spells it kinda a pointless argument, and maybe I started it with how I defined things in my post above.

From your older posts, the question really should be does the wizard have a -variety- of things he can do. Should it matter if the spell does damage? For this argument, not really. Should it matter if there are spells that do something other than pure damage? Yes. What should matter is if there are a variety of things that spells can do, irregardless of whether they also do damage.

So, lets look at some of the things a wizard can do in combat:
Level 1
At-will, he can slow someone down for a turn
At-will, he can push up to 9 enemies away
Once per encounter, he can daze someone for a turn
Once per encounter, he can make a 3x3 area difficult terrain, this also knocks enemies down
Once per encounter, he can weaken an enemy for a turn
Once a day, he can summon a ball of fire
Once a day, he can create a freezing cloud to control the battlefield for a turn
Once a day, he can slow everyone in a 5 by 5 area, and possibly make them unconscious, both effects require saves to end

Ok, gonna jump around alot more now:
Lvl 2: He can run fast, jump far, fall slowly, or defend himself
Lvl 5: he can summon a big icy hand and grab people with it, he can then drag them around or hold them in place
Lvl 6: He can open a Dimensional door, or disguise himself, or turn himself invisible, or dispel a magical zone, or float around, or create that wall of fog I mentioned above.

I'm gonna stop here, because really most spells that the wizard gets does something other than just damage. Do they last an infinite amount of time? No. But when most of your spells are applying an effect of some kind, you really don't need for them to last a long time to be effective.

No, the wizard doesn't have as much versatility as he did in 3.x. But I don't think that is a bad thing either. Every character has a role to play in the party, no one character should be able to fill every role.
 

I've never gotten a Wizard past 11th level, so I wouldn't know anything about them being gods. This appears to be the main counter position people have come up with. High level is now balanced. Fine. It is. It's also boring.

This implies a huge inherent contradiction in your position.

We say the magic was fundamentally flawed in 3.x because it was broken at higher levels. We like 4e because you can play it at any level.

You say it wasn't broken, but then admit you have never plyed it past 4th level spells. (or maybe briefly with a 5th level spell)

In fact it sounds like you played 3.x at the time of 7th - 12th level, the bit that most people agree was the best levels to play it at as they were the most fun. What wizards did was expand that bit over the whole 3o levels.


As for fire heal fire heal. Really our games of 4e have had people comming up with LOADS more cool stuff than 3.x

Why beause everyone has flavoursome powers. Puhing and pullling. Making targets weaker.

"Hey I'll use this power to open a gap so you can get around him, then the paladin can hit him with the really huge damage thing with a flanking bonus"

You never got that in 3.x
The fighter couldn't DO ANYTHING but hit things. The Ranger was totally rubbish because he had ro roll to hit, unlike the wizard, and he could attack one target at once unlike the wizard, oh and the wizard can do more damage in each hit too.

And as for your example of escaping out a door with Knock. Well now anyone, not just the wizard can try his hand at thievery to get that door unlocked.
 

Just because you don't like the spells, doesn't mean they don't count. Just because you can't think of goos uses for these spells, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Who cares if they exist if they will almost never be used?

Be honest here. What percentage of the time does anyone here cast a cantrip in combat. Be truthful. Unless someone comes up with a niche trick (like Plane Sailing did in the other thread, but that one would not be used in the H series adventures and is dependent on how DMs set up their adventures), they really won't be used often.

And I'm not sure how you can say I was misleading when I included a column that removes the cantrips from the calculations, and in the very next sentence after the one you quoted said that if you don't count the cantrips then yes you start with 0% non-damaging skills but that it increases to 33.% at level 30.

That was not what was misleading. It was good that you pointed that out. What was misleading is your 50% statement.

If a PC is fifth level and has 6 spells and the last one is a Daily Utility, that spell can only be cast once per day. That will typically be far from 16.7% of the spells cast. People look at your chart and see "Ohhh 50%, that's a lot".

It will be closer to 2% to 5% of the time (in the 5th level Daily Utility case), depending on how many spells and which ones are cast on a given day. That's a very tiny percentage of the time.

~3% of the spells cast at 5th level on any given day will be non-damaging ones. Not the 45% of your chart. Not the 9% of your chart.

This is what is misleading. The number of utility spells out of number of spells itself is a totally meaningless statistic. It inflates the percentage of how many of each can be cast in any given situation on any given day. It tells you how many cards you will have of each (if one uses cards for their spells/powers), not how much variety it gives the caster in a given day.

Really this whole damaging vs non-damaging spells it kinda a pointless argument, and maybe I started it with how I defined things in my post above.

It's at the core of this thread.

Why is magic non-special? Because everyone has it. A power is just another name for a spell. Even the monsters have powers (i.e. spells).

Why is combat repetitive? Because 90+% of spells cast are not just damaging, but the same spells used over and over and over again.

Take 5th level. Most Encounters are: Encounter, At Will, At Will, Encounter, At Will, At Will, At Will, At Will, etc. A few Encounters and a boatload of At Wills, and all of these spells are damaging spells. zzzzzz

Occassionally, a Wizard will throw in one of his 2 Daily Attack powers or his Daily Utility power.

But most rounds are At Will except for a potential two rounds of Encounter (which are not always cast either, depending on situation).

It's repetitive. Ditto for all of the other PCs at the table.

It's very similar to what running Fighters and Rogues was in 3E. Least common denominator.

From your older posts, the question really should be does the wizard have a -variety- of things he can do.

EXACTLY.

That is a main point of this thread.

First level. 4 cantrips. 95+% of situations, if the player casts them in combat, his friends will throw dice at him.

Sure, he has the option. But, what good is the option if it will almost never be used in combat?

Great, the Wizard took Jump. Woo hoo. It is an Encounter power, but will he use it every encounter? Of course not. My Wizard took Shield and he does not even use that every encounter.


That's the issue. Sure the Wizard has some options (as your chart illustrates), but they are SO limited that most combats feel the same. And, it's not just Wizards. It's Fighters and Rogues and everyone else. The reason we talk about Wizards and Clerics is that historically, they have had a lot more options than the other classes, so the delta is easier to see.

Many people played those types of classes for the variety. Spells are cool.

Not anymore. Now they are repetitive.

Now, these classes do not have 50% variety as your chart implies. They have a tiny small amount of variety. They are lucky if 10% of the prayers or spells they cast over the lifetime of the PC are Utility non-damaging spells.
 

It's at the core of this thread.

Why is magic non-special? Because everyone has it. A power is just another name for a spell. Even the monsters have powers (i.e. spells).

I think a lot of this thread is (as is typical on the internet) has turned into quibbling over degree. Allow me to summarize, ignoring many of the nuances:

KarinsDad: My wizard can't do all of the awesome and interesting things he used to be able to do in 3e. (By the way, I don't like the 4e balance system and the removal of save-or-die/suck).

Opponents: I ignore your fundamental disagreement with 4e's philosophy - I only perceive you as saying that Wizards are boring and suck now - I am having fun with my Wizard by doing X (even though it is balanced with the rest of the classes now), and I am offended that you don't like this style of wizard.

I definitely see what you're saying KarinsDad. You are correct that wizards got hit with a GIANT nerf-bat. I happen to think that wizards are more fun to play now that you have to work a little harder and be more creative to use magic to solve your problems, and I think that 3.x magic made magic rote, boring, and utilitarian in play "Hey, we have a problem - our ability to solve this problem is reduced to whether or not our Wizard can cast spell X today from his prepared spells and/or scrolls - he has it? Yay, we win. He doesn't? Oh no, now we must get creative". I suggest we respectfully agree to disagree on what makes a fun wizard for each of us.
 
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KarinsDad: My wizard can't do all of the awesome and interesting things he used to be able to do in 3e. (By the way, I don't like the 4e balance system and the removal of save-or-die/suck).

Two points: One, I don't care about awesome, I only care about interesting and versatile. Two, I like the removal of save or die.

I definitely see what you're saying KarinsDad. You are correct that wizards got hit with a GIANT nerf-bat. I happen to think that wizards are more fun to play now that you have to work a little harder and be more creative to use magic to solve your problems, and I think that 3.x magic made magic rote, boring, and utilitarian in play "Hey, we have a problem - our ability to solve this problem is reduced to whether or not our Wizard can cast spell X today from his prepared spells and/or scrolls - he has it? Yay, we win. He doesn't? Oh no, now we must get creative".

It really is not about the Wizard being or not being able to do any one thing. It's about the Wizard being able to do things other than damage.


There is a fundamental lack of understanding on this. It's not that the Wizards "are not awesome". It's not that the Wizards "cannot solve all problems". That is so far from the truth. People who keep bringing this up "don't get it".

It's that Wizards have a small handful of spells which they actually use and it makes them repetitive. It's about a lack of viable options. Casting Mage Hand in combat is not a serious option the majority of the time.

Repetitive appears to be fun for some people. It's not fun for others.

For some people, the fun of playing spell casters in 1E through 3.5 was the fact that the player could focus on a large variety of options. He couldn't cast them all in the same day, but he could mix it up. Now, he can't. The player could prep for the unexpected by spending money to make scrolls. He had options.

That aspect of the game has been neutered and homogenized. When all you have is hammers on your toolbelt, every problem is a nail.

I suggest we respectfully agree to disagree on what makes a fun wizard for each of us.

Yup.

By the way, I had a blast playing my Wizard for the first few months. It's just that for myself and other players at my table, the same 'ol same 'ol starting getting old. I can definitely appreciate that people are having a lot of fun playing their wizards.
 

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