D&D 4E Forked Thread: Some Thoughts on 4e

[WalterKovacs]

Actually, Cloud of Daggers is basically just damage as well. With the wide open encounter spaces in 4E, it brings very little to the terrain equation.

And you are right. It is slightly more than just roll damage. Just not a lot more as per the other poster. Typically, pushing someone a few squares or slowing them is not a real lot of variety. Especially when you only have 2 or 3 choices when the good stuff runs out.

Pushing or slowing a character may not be a lot of variety, but that just means you have to be creative in their use.

A slowed character can't shift, and is stuck with having 2 motion. Slow can keep someone stuck in a flank [unless they move and provoke from both flankers] or keep them at a distance. There are similar helpful things that come out of pushing [heck, if nothing else you get them off of you].

Cloud of Dagger can be useful in tight passages, especially with orb mastery. If your party can move people around they can get a bit more out of it by pushing people into those squares. Also, Cloud is an area attack. This does more damage against swarms, and ignores concealment penalties.

Thunderwave is a close attack, which doesn't provoke [not to mention pushes people away from you] and it attacks against multiples.

Scorching is an at will ranged Area attack that hits more than a single square ... it's another thing that only wizards get.

So, ultimately, compared to other classes, you have Ray of Frost and Magic Missle ... the others are stuff other classes don't have.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Just to point out here, that if it's an equivalent-level enemy, and particularly if the enemy is a soldier, the fighter may have to roll an 11+ to hit.

Hell no ... Fighters get +Wis on OAs, plus they could have blade opportunist and/or combat reflexes ('cos OAs are nice for them to begin with) ... on an equivalent level enemy, a fighter shouldn't miss much.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

True, but it takes a special situation to make "I'll give them free shots" a good idea. It's not the default that seems to happen in some games, or at least that it's been presented as.

Really, the number AoO's and Combat Challenge Interrupts you get is dependent on your DM. In my game I pretty much never get AoO's, and whoever I mark ends up going after me. Same with the Paladin, unless he does something funky like mark a guy who is in a position where it's physically impossible to attack the Paladin (or at the least, he would get hit by 2 or 3 AoO's trying to get to the Pally).

As for Verision's claims of getting 1-3 AoO's (With one technically being a combat challenge interrupt) per round, that's just how his DM is playing the monsters. In all probablility, there's only one Defender in the group and he's attempting to swarm past the Defender to get to the squishies. Verision is fulfilling his role as a Defender by making the enemies pay for provoking those attacks, which means they'll be weaker when they do get to the squishies.

In my game, we have two Defenders though, myself (axe and shield Fighter) and a 2H weapon Paladin. So the DM doesn't really want to charge past us in tight quarters since he could be provoking AoO's from multiple targets. That combined with the fact that he doesn't want to face the penalties for ignoring our marks means that we're very sticky. So our tactics usually consist of the two Defenders tying up the melee monsters while the melee Cleric and the Rogue get in their knocks (with the Rogue manuvering for sneak attack bonuses of course). Meanwhile, our ranged allies work on softening those targets up for us, keeping us up, and fighting any ranged baddies that are trying to gang up on one of the Defenders. So while we never get any AoO's, our value comes from the threat of those AoO's and the penalties for ignoring our marks. We defend, not by damaging them, but by keeping the enemies contained.

 

[FireLance]

A slowed character can't shift.

Why not? I can't find anything in the description of the slowed condition that prevents shifting.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Why not? I can't find anything in the description of the slowed condition that prevents shifting.

It may just be me being too used to the fighter using steel serpent strike ... it's about the only slow effect that comes up regularly, so I must have put the shifting in with the slowed.

 

[Benimoto]

He's flanked, so it's a 9+ if the math works out perfectly. But maybe we've got more min-maxing at our table, because it's almost never a straight 11+ roll to hit an equally-leveled opponent (especially if you've got combat advantage on them).

Oh, true. I didn't think about that or Combat Superiority. Well fighting higher-level soldier-type monsters isn't that rare. At least they have a chance.

True, but it takes a special situation to make "I'll give them free shots" a good idea. It's not the default that seems to happen in some games, or at least that it's been presented as.

I respectfully disagree. I think that for most monsters either "let's stop fighting the fighter" or "let's quit being flanked by the striker" is good enough reason, let alone both. I encourage you or your DM to experiment with some more mobile tactics for monsters.

Monsters have enough HP that giving up a few free shots isn't out of the question. It gives the monsters better positioning, it lets the fighter use his class features, it adds pressure to party members who thought they were "safe". Heck, if it makes the combat go by faster, while being more interesting, it'll even keep "this combat is boring already" types like ExploderWizard happy.

If the monsters are so self-preserving that they're afraid to get hit, what are they even doing in combat? (Although at least 4e makes it a little better. In 3e, I felt as though the party was constantly being attacked by monsters that not only had inferior stats, but inferior numbers as well.)

 

[monboesen]

To KarinsDad

I think by now we all get that you dont much like 4ed, or at least not the Wizard and the associated mechanics. It is no surprise that the new set of rules wont be a good fit for all individuals and playstyles.

What I dont understand is why you dont just implement some simple changes that shifts the game in the direction you like (or just use 3ed rules if they worked better for you). At least in my gaming circles D&D have always been somewhat houseruled. From game to game and DM to DM there was always something that just didn't fit the preferences of those involved. IMO 4e is easier to house rule than any other version of D&D.

As I understand it you would like more versatility for the Wizard. How about giving them the option of

1. Replacing any encounter power on the fly with any ritual they know, making it a move + standard action to use it (essentially taking an entire rounds actions).

and/or

2. Preparing any ritual they know in place of a Daily power and casting it as a standard action.

For both options ditch or keep the cost of the ritual depending on how you like magic to work.

This preserves the encounter and daily power mechanics and gives back a lot of flexibility (at the cost of firepower). I can't see it overpower the other classes, though it will make the wizard better.

It will not immediately reinstate the dominance of the 3ed wizard, but may require a critical approach to including new rituals.

 

[Verision]

Deleted

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Either way though, the Fighter is still doing their job. Whether they're actually getting AoO's, or just being sticky, they're keeping the monsters away from the squishy members. The only thing it really changes in the game mechanics is what you're concentrating your stats and feats on.

Since I'm not getting a lot of AoO's it means that I don't need to worry about pumping up my WIS score to get the AoO bonus (I'm also not planning on using polearms or going with the Pit Fighter PP). It also means that things like HBO aren't as useful, and so I'm sticking with either Axes or Hammers and just worrying about pumping STR and CON.

 

[James McMurray]

I respectfully disagree. I think that for most monsters either "let's stop fighting the fighter" or "let's quit being flanked by the striker" is good enough reason, let alone both. I encourage you or your DM to experiment with some more mobile tactics for monsters.

Except that you can't actually get away from the fighter. If you shift, he possibly hits you and you've moved one square. If you move, he almost certainly hits you and you've moved one square.

Mobility is an option if the defender doesn't have Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge. Against a fighter you're likely to just waste an action getting stabbed, unless you have an ability that lets you shift multiple squares at once..

If the monsters are so self-preserving that they're afraid to get hit, what are they even doing in combat?

It has nothing to do with "afraid to be hit" and everything to do with "why be hit for no benefit?" Skirmishers and controllers frequently have ways to move themselves or the defender, as do many higher level extraplanar entities. but once a soldier or brute is next to a fighter, the price of trying to get away tends to be too high much of the time.

Short of using their entire turn to shift (getting hit in the process) and then move their speed (possibly provoking from other PCs), how do your monsters get away from the fighter?