Forked Thread: Star Wars Saga issues and 4e

[MerricB]

Forked from: Is 4E doing it for you?

I'll throw some answers out, they're from memory as I don't have my book with me...so bear with me. But I also don't want to really derail the thread, so we could discuss SWSE in a forked thread after this if you want.

Forked!

Well I think a few things to remember about Move Object are that...

1. It can only move an object a maximum of 6 squares.
2.To move anyone that resists the Jedi his UtF check has to be higher than it's Will Defense.
3. to damage a target the jedi must exceed the UtF check to move the object and exceed the targets Reflex Defense.
4. As GM you control what size objects are available to your players with this power.
5. Not sure if it's an "official" rule but as GM if players try to lift objects that are anchored, secured, stuck, etc. I definitely increase the UtF check DC.

A few counterpoints:
* Damage dealt by Move Object is utterly dependent on the UtF check, not the size of the object.
* Due to the way Skill Focus interacts with the power, it's possible to get very, very high UtF checks with it - at low levels, this utterly overwhelms any Will or Reflex Defense. +13 at first level is quite feasible...
* Throw one stormtrooper into another!

Discussion of Born Leader and Noble Talents

First...if this was the case, Distant Command should have been your second Talent, it totally solves your problem. Also the Inspire Talents, allow you to give bonuses that are not loss if line of sight is broken.

And it was. But it means I have to take 2 talents so that I can give my friends (not myself) a +1 to hit. Hmm.

If Born Leader was "+1 to allies attack rolls while they're in LOS" and wasn't a 1/encounter power, I'd be ok with it. But it isn't. You've got to spend a swift action activating it and if your friends drop out of LOS even briefly then they lose the benefits for the rest of the encounter.

Also, if you have a "noble" whose in combat alot, why not give him a few levels of soldier or at least armor proficiency as a feat... and get some good armor...there''s also fighting defensively, getting concealment and or cover.

Concealment and Cover mean nothing when someone uses Aim on you. (They ignore those penalties to hit). Fighting Defensively means I can't hit, and by the time you've reached a few levels, I don't think Armor Proficiency is worth it any more.

I also don't see a big gap between the jedi talents and nobles talents....Demand Surrender is pretty powerful, as is Spontaneous SKill, Weaken Resolve, and Trust are all pretty powerful talents.

I'll need to get my own Saga book to look at them again. I do agree there are some good noble talents (normally at the end of long trees with wimpy first picks).

Lack of HP in Star Wars

See this, IMO, is a minor problem...ok give people another second wind if you want, or more FP's...I didn't have a problem with this when I ran the game (actually I had the opposite problem)...but it doesn't seem hard to fix for a different feel. Unlike the multi-class rules in 4e, which really can't be patched with a quick fix like the above if people wan to.

Oh, I don't suggest that the multiclass rules in 4e can be fixed quickly. However, healing HP in Star Wars is almost impossible unless you're a Jedi or you have access to a Bacta Tank (which you really shouldn't a lot of the time), and given how deadly combat can be, it ruins an ongoing part of a military campaign.

We're currently playing through Dawn of Defiance. My PC is now a 7th level Noble (about to multiclass into Officer) with the Born Leader, Distant Command, Wealth, and Rally talents. Wealth has been fun, I must say. I've been using it entirely on trivial purposes (outfitting a spaceship with real wood panelling!) but it's definitely one of the better and more fun talents.

Cheers!

 

[drothgery]

However, healing HP in Star Wars is almost impossible unless you're a Jedi or you have access to a Bacta Tank (which you really shouldn't a lot of the time), and given how deadly combat can be, it ruins an ongoing part of a military campaign.

Force Unleashed helps a lot here, with the Medic prestige class and a talent tree for medical droids.

 

[Spatula]

In my limited experience with Saga (hi Dave! ) the slow healing was definitely a momentum killer. The game would benefit a lot from 4e's rest-and-you're-healed philosophy, IMO.

 

[drothgery]

In my limited experience with Saga (hi Dave! ) the slow healing was definitely a momentum killer. The game would benefit a lot from 4e's rest-and-you're-healed philosophy, IMO.

Though it kind of hurt that no one was trained in the heal / treat injury skill (I forget what it actually is).

There's a lot of little things from 4e that Saga could really benefit from. Standardized attack progressions across all classes, that are the same as defense progressions. Fixed hit points. Max-damage crits (on average, it's the same, but it's far less swingy). Minions (stormtroopers are the original minions).

 

[Remathilis]

Saga could REALLY benefit from the 4e Saving throw system (Force Choke, I'm looking at you).

 

[El Mahdi]

In my limited experience with Saga (hi Dave! ) the slow healing was definitely a momentum killer. The game would benefit a lot from 4e's rest-and-you're-healed philosophy, IMO.

I'm with this opinion. However, I'll take it one further, I think any game would benefit from the 4E healing concept. I feel it's a really ingenious way of giving any game that "cinematic hero" feel. It's what allows John McClaine to keep going even though he looks like he was in a car wreck (or even when he is in a car wreck). It puts the "Heros" in a definite "class-apart" from common people, able to take a licking and keep on ticking. (I completely stole this concept for my houseruled 3.5E game).

 

[Starbuck_II]

In my limited experience with Saga (hi Dave! ) the slow healing was definitely a momentum killer. The game would benefit a lot from 4e's rest-and-you're-healed philosophy, IMO.

Just hire a Jedi. Vital Transfer is awesome.

You don't need more than 1 use from feat. Keep using it after it recharges.

It works great.

 

[drothgery]

Just hire a Jedi. Vital Transfer is awesome.

You don't need more than 1 use from feat. Keep using it after it recharges.

It works great.

Spatula was running a Jedi (or really, a Padawan; if I ever get around to running Episode II of that campaign, it's starting at level 8, but they weren't there yet); he didn't have that power. Nor did his Master. Nor the other Force sensitive PC. And the third PC was a Wookiee.

 

[MerricB]

Force Unleashed helps a lot here, with the Medic prestige class and a talent tree for medical droids.

Oh it certainly does. Our Jedi died two sessions ago, so his new character is a medical droid. We're trying to persuade him to take the Medic prestige class - the two abilities actually stack!

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

Forked from: Is 4E doing it for you?



Forked!



A few counterpoints:
* Damage dealt by Move Object is utterly dependent on the UtF check, not the size of the object.
* Due to the way Skill Focus interacts with the power, it's possible to get very, very high UtF checks with it - at low levels, this utterly overwhelms any Will or Reflex Defense. +13 at first level is quite feasible...
* Throw one stormtrooper into another!

Uhmm, a few counter-counter points...

1. I think you are totally mistaken about how Move Object works...the UtF check DC is determined by the size of the object. The size of the object determines damage, page 98...to clarify a DC of 15 or higher is required to move a medium object...a medium object does 2d6 points of damage no matter how high your roll is. Just because you roll higher doesn't make it do the damage of a Huge or Gargantuan object. The only thing that increases damage is spending a force point. Also remember the size of the object determines how many targets it can actually affect...A medium object can only attack one 5 foot square.

2. Yes, but it is inherently limited by what objects are available. In other words if you stage every fight with a truckload of Huge objects...you want your jedi with this power to devastate multiple enemies. Otherwise you don't. I mean without a force point you need to have a large size object or bigger to do more damage than a lightsaber.

3. Ok, you just did 2D6 damage to two stormtroopers, A little better than you could have done with your lightsaber, and it hits 2 instead of one...but you have a better chance of actually killing one if you use the lightsaber. Not seeing how this is a killer power. Honestly Force Slam is better for taking people down.

Discussion of Born Leader and Noble Talents



And it was. But it means I have to take 2 talents so that I can give my friends (not myself) a +1 to hit. Hmm.

If Born Leader was "+1 to allies attack rolls while they're in LOS" and wasn't a 1/encounter power, I'd be ok with it. But it isn't. You've got to spend a swift action activating it and if your friends drop out of LOS even briefly then they lose the benefits for the rest of the encounter.

No, you're spending two feats so that you can hide...or not even enter a combat and give your allies a bonus. I don't think a feat is that high of a cost to basically up everyone in the party and make it so that you don't have to suffer any (or minimal risk).

Concealment and Cover mean nothing when someone uses Aim on you. (They ignore those penalties to hit). Fighting Defensively means I can't hit, and by the time you've reached a few levels, I don't think Armor Proficiency is worth it any more.

I was just giving you the off the top of my head ways to make your character more durable, and that armor helps alot at the lower levels. Honestly there are plenty of ways to make a more durable and combat oriented character...if you are willing to use the multi-class rules to their full extent...you even have control on how combat vs. socially adept your noble is.

'll need to get my own Saga book to look at them again. I do agree there are some good noble talents (normally at the end of long trees with wimpy first picks).

Because the jedi trees are just full of awesome at the lower levels...not. Honestly look at some of the starting talents for jedi, they're very situational and aren't that power...actually I think the talents are pretty well balanced, with only a few at most that could be considered above the norm.
Merrick, honestly I get the SWSE game you played in was combat-heavy...well then it seems to reason that a straight noble will be at a disadvantage in that type of game. Luckily SWSE gives you the tools to adjust your character quite easily to this siituation.

Lack of HP in Star Wars



Oh, I don't suggest that the multiclass rules in 4e can be fixed quickly. However, healing HP in Star Wars is almost impossible unless you're a Jedi or you have access to a Bacta Tank (which you really shouldn't a lot of the time), and given how deadly combat can be, it ruins an ongoing part of a military campaign.

We're currently playing through Dawn of Defiance. My PC is now a 7th level Noble (about to multiclass into Officer) with the Born Leader, Distant Command, Wealth, and Rally talents. Wealth has been fun, I must say. I've been using it entirely on trivial purposes (outfitting a spaceship with real wood panelling!) but it's definitely one of the better and more fun talents.

Cheers!

Again, as I said before...IMO, compared to the issues I have with 4e...this is trivial. I can easily adjust the amount of Second Winds a character has in my game to reflect the feel I want. I don't see this as that big of an issue compared to how well it does everything else 4e doesn't do well (all IMO of course)

SIDE NOTE: Also just wanted to say that honestly I think the condition track in SWSE is just an elegant and streamlined mechanic.