Forked Thread: Star Wars Saga issues and 4e

[Majoru Oakheart]

Uhmm, a few counter-counter points...

1. I think you are totally mistaken about how Move Object works...the UtF check DC is determined by the size of the object. The size of the object determines damage, page 98...to clarify a DC of 15 or higher is required to move a medium object...a medium object does 2d6 points of damage no matter how high your roll is. Just because you roll higher doesn't make it do the damage of a Huge or Gargantuan object. The only thing that increases damage is spending a force point. Also remember the size of the object determines how many targets it can actually affect...A medium object can only attack one 5 foot square.

That's not what it says. It says: "The result of the check determines the MAXIMUM size of the target you can lift(see below)....You can hurl the target at another target within range...BOTH targets take damage determined by your Use the Force check."

Notice, it says damage determined by your Use the Force check, not by the size of the object. It also says both targets take the damage.

No, you're spending two feats so that you can hide...or not even enter a combat and give your allies a bonus. I don't think a feat is that high of a cost to basically up everyone in the party and make it so that you don't have to suffer any (or minimal risk).

In exchange for...you know, hiding and not being able to be useful. This seems like a great trade-off for a bonus that has nearly no effect on combat.

Because the jedi trees are just full of awesome at the lower levels...not. Honestly look at some of the starting talents for jedi, they're very situational and aren't that power...actually I think the talents are pretty well balanced, with only a few at most that could be considered above the norm.
Merrick, honestly I get the SWSE game you played in was combat-heavy...well then it seems to reason that a straight noble will be at a disadvantage in that type of game. Luckily SWSE gives you the tools to adjust your character quite easily to this siituation.

Umm, Deflect and Block are not that useful? Must be playing a different game than me as the combination of the 2 has caused all the Jedi in my game to basically never get hit...ever.

Again, as I said before...IMO, compared to the issues I have with 4e...this is trivial. I can easily adjust the amount of Second Winds a character has in my game to reflect the feel I want. I don't see this as that big of an issue compared to how well it does everything else 4e doesn't do well (all IMO of course)

So far I haven't seen it do anything better than 4e. I liked the system when I read it because it was so much better than 3.5e. However, since playing 4e, all I can see are the issues in SAGA Edition. Which are pretty much a HUGE imbalance between the classes and NPCs and monsters who are not able to pose a significant challenge to the PCs unless they are at least 5-10 levels above the PCs. And even then, if they aren't Jedi, they are probably still dead.

SIDE NOTE: Also just wanted to say that honestly I think the condition track in SWSE is just an elegant and streamlined mechanic.

It's normally very slow. I find that most enemies either die without ever going down the condition track or die after going one step down the condition track. It has next to zero effect on most combats and is often a pain to remember and keep track of since I have to look up the damage threshold of the enemy each time they take damage and remember to apply the modifier to their Reflex Defense and Attack rolls on the players turns and their turns respectively.

 

[El Mahdi]

. . . It's normally very slow. I find that most enemies either die without ever going down the condition track or die after going one step down the condition track. It has next to zero effect on most combats and is often a pain to remember and keep track of since I have to look up the damage threshold of the enemy each time they take damage and remember to apply the modifier to their Reflex Defense and Attack rolls on the players turns and their turns respectively.

Whether it's RAW or not, why use the condition track for NPC's/Monsters if it just seems to be more trouble that it's worth? I stole the condition track for my houseruled 3.5E game for PC's, but not for NPC's/Monsters. The Players don't even notice.

I also drop PC's down the condition track when they are hit with a critical hit. It really brings home the effect of a critical wound, especially with the abstractness of Hit Points. Since I explain to my players that Hit Points are an abstract quantity encompassing things like energy, toughness, and overall health - having a condition track makes critical wounds actually have a real impact on the performance of the character. It allows healing surges and hit point recovery after an encounter to feel more realistic as "recoverd energy" when condition track status doesn't automatically get restored, simulating the effects of ongoing critical damage.

But, as I stated before, I don't use this for NPC's/Monsters. The players don't seem to notice and have never asked. It's completely imvisible to them.

 

[Imaro]

That's not what it says. It says: "The result of the check determines the MAXIMUM size of the target you can lift(see below)....You can hurl the target at another target within range...BOTH targets take damage determined by your Use the Force check."

Notice, it says damage determined by your Use the Force check, not by the size of the object. It also says both targets take the damage.

You are correct, though I did warn Merrick, before we started this discussion I didn't have my books with me and this stuff was off the top of my head. So yes, I can make a mistake.

In exchange for...you know, hiding and not being able to be useful. This seems like a great trade-off for a bonus that has nearly no effect on combat.

Isn't this what he said he wanted to do? What exactly are you arguing here? And I wouldn't say a bonus you can give every member in the party has "nearly no effect on combat"...but ok, I guess it's an opinion thing.

Umm, Deflect and Block are not that useful? Must be playing a different game than me as the combination of the 2 has caused all the Jedi in my game to basically never get hit...ever.

Try auto-fire & grenades, especially when fighting multiple stormtroopers...suddenly Deflect and Block aren't all that great. These are things you're average stormtrooper can use, and there's no reason a Jedi shouldn't be taking damage because of these two powers.

The GM in Star Wars has to tailor his encounters for his group, and IMHO, this makes it so much more interesting than the one size fits all encounter design. I like for my players to come up with cool stuff it challenges me as a GM...and they like when I challenge them as well. YMMV of course.

So far I haven't seen it do anything better than 4e. I liked the system when I read it because it was so much better than 3.5e. However, since playing 4e, all I can see are the issues in SAGA Edition. Which are pretty much a HUGE imbalance between the classes and NPCs and monsters who are not able to pose a significant challenge to the PCs unless they are at least 5-10 levels above the PCs. And even then, if they aren't Jedi, they are probably still dead.

What are you talking about? Heroic classes? Non-Heroic classes...combining them? This seems like a really broad statement that doesn't have a specific point. Please expound or give an example so I can better understand what the imbalance is.

The other funny thing is that most of the people above are arguing SWSE is too deadly...yet you're arguing it's a cake walk. There seems like there's a pretty big disparity there.

It's normally very slow. I find that most enemies either die without ever going down the condition track or die after going one step down the condition track. It has next to zero effect on most combats and is often a pain to remember and keep track of since I have to look up the damage threshold of the enemy each time they take damage and remember to apply the modifier to their Reflex Defense and Attack rolls on the players turns and their turns respectively.

Yeah...it's suppose to be... kinda slow. It represents conditions as in things that affect you short term or long term over time...It's not suppose to be more HP's. It also gives you minuses...but since above you claim bonuses are useless...I gues penalties don't matter either...I guess. Yeah it's way more of a pain to keep track of than the bloodied, marked, recharge etc. abilities with differing effects that PC's and numerous monsters have in a 4e game.