Forked Thread: TURTLEDOME!: Finnian

[KenHood]

It's got the highest maximum output, but it's average output leaves a lot to be desired. Also, your chance of maximum output is lower than that of a single strike.

Over time, the damage output of a basic attack and a Twin Strike come out to about the same. But in most scenarios, you'll use the power four or five times at most.

If you attacked 100 times with a basic strike: 50 will hit, 5 of those that hit inflict maximum damage. So, 45 x 8.5 + 5 x 12. For a total output of 442.5 points of damage.

If you used Twin Strike 100 times: 75 will hit, 25 of those will hit twice. So 45 x 4.5 and 25 x 9. For a total output of 427.5 points of damage.

It comes out to just about the same thing.

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Twin Strike does have advantage against minions, because you can take out two of them 25% of the time.

If both attacks in a Twin Strike did hit and inflict maximum damage, you would inflict 4 additional points of damage--not a huge amount.

So, my conclusion that it's not that great a power. It's just a little better than a standard attack.

It does become more beneficial if you have a magic ranged weapon or some effect enables you to gain a constant damage bonus against your target. In that instance, you can apply that bonus twice, 25% of the time.

 

[Atanatotatos]

How so? What you're losing is just your strenght (or dexterity) score in damage; you still get to pile up every other kind of bonus. And since your accuracy is higher (because you roll two attacks), you have more chances to deal quarry damage, which makes up for the loss of the Str modifier. Also, the more your chance to hit goes up, the more chances you have to hit twice. The more your chances to hit go down, the more you benefit from the added accuracy.
At low levels there are better at-wills, but as soon as you start getting some item and feat bonus in there, Twin strike (and dual strike) come out on top.

 

[KenHood]

You forget: The mechanics of the game ensure that your enhancements to attack rolls increase with your level, keeping it about 50% (or lower) if you're fighting opponents of appropriate power.

 

[Atanatotatos]

Well, then what happens when your friendly neighborhood tactlord is constantly flanking with you and occassionally dropping a +5 to hit for a round on top of it?

 

[JoeNotCharles]

I've seen that Balth pretty consistently hits with 1 of his 2 Twin Strike rolls and adds the Hunter's Quarry damage to the hit - that's 50% more Hunter's Quarry damage than he would be doing with a single attack.

 

[KenHood]

That's a good point on the application of Hunter's Quarry. I didn't consider it.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Balth is a little twinkified, you have to remember. 20 Dex, 18 Wis, and 10's everywhere else

But still, Twin Strike does give you more chance of HQ damage. Especially good if you have that feat that bumps up the damage die to a d8. And as soon as you get a few static damage bonuses, a multi-attack power has better expected damage than a single attack power - that's just a fact of the math.

Also, Ken, you're forgetting that a longbow does 1d10 damage in 4e

 

[weldon]

I've been reading thread after thread in the DnD 4E Character Optimization forums trying to figure out 4E combat. Generally, I think I can balance what I give up with the pure damage powers from the TBF or Archer styles by gaining a tactical advantage with the companion flanking, setting Hunter's Quarry, etc. So I'm good with Beastmaster.

The archery route seems pretty straight forward. Get Twin Strike, Distant Advantage, Beast Protector, and go to town.

I'm trying to think through a melee build, so help me out...

18 Str, 16 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha for a net result of 18, 16, 12, 10, 10, 10 (after half-elf bonuses).

I considered boosting Wisdom, but the # of powers with damage modifiers based on Wis seems low. I think I'd rather have the AC and the chance to hit with a ranged attack when needed, although perception is a big deal.

So now I'm looking for powers that deal damage and/or let me move or shift to maintain CA or get OA if they try to move. The raptor's role becomes blocker or flanker and I become a tactician in battle to move around so I can hit with Twin Strike as often as possible. Off-hand Strike is in there just for an extra attack each encounter.

Beast Protector
Twin Strike
Circling Strike (maybe Hit & Run?)
Wolf Pack Tactics (dilettante extra power)
Driving the Quarry
Off-hand Strike

Thoughts?

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

That looks a little fragile for a melee combatant. I wonder if it would be worth it to drop your strength to 16 and put points into con and wis.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Take it from someone who did it: a 16 in Str is doable if you use swords. You end up with a +6 attack bonus, which is the same as an 18 Str character with an axe, you just do a little less damage. I mean, it's obviously not as good as 18 Str for attacking, but a little balance never hurt anyone, especially when it keeps you alive.

More hp will definitely help in melee though, and you probably want your defenses as high as possible as well. To that end, dropping a couple points in Wis could benefit him, though AC and Ref are (I think) the most commonly attacked defenses.

Edit: I knew there was something else I wanted to say, and this is it. You don't need a high Dex for a good ranged attack, unless you really want to use a bow. Get yourself some javelins, or a different heavy thrown weapon, and then basic ranged attacks with them and Str based. Though I guess if you wanted to use Twin Strike ranged you need Dex, but that's a different story.