[forked thread] What constitutes an edition war?

Those preview books were particularly bad in this regard. There is at least one game designer involved who's books I will never seek out because of the way he addressed non combat encounters. (What if I want to go traipsing through the fairy gates to interact with the little people?)

That's fair. I know there is one 3E writer who I now wouldn't read if you gave me his work and paid me to read it. I try not to hold this writer's behavior against 3E, but there have times when I have to consciously refrain from doing so. :blush:
 

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That's fair. I know there is one 3E writer who I now wouldn't read if you gave me his work and paid me to read it. I try not to hold this writer's behavior against 3E, but there have times when I have to consciously refrain from doing so. :blush:
Yep, it happens.

And the saying 'You only get one chance to make a good first impression' definitely came into play. It is likely that I would never have liked, played, or run 4e, but the attitude displayed turned me from what might have been accepting apathy to active dislike.

While there were elements of 2e that I very much disliked (I am looking at you Complete Book of Elf Cheese!) I never felt dislike for the game as a whole, thinking it, overall, was an improvement on 1e.

When 3e came out there were nods and smiles towards earlier editions (including the sample of play from the 1e Dungeon Masters Guide, almost verbatim). There was a guide for updating characters to the new edition.

4e did not bother with even that minor courtesy. (I will admit - a minor courtesy, but likely a whole lot of work, on a tight schedule.)

Add the dumping of the OGL, and the way they dropped the licenses, and, well... you get the picture. It felt like WotC was going out of their way to get rid of every drop of goodwill that I felt towards them for saving D&D. :eek: If so, then they succeeded. And there had been a whole lot of goodwill to start with. :.-(

The Auld Grump
 

Those preview books were particularly bad in this regard. There is at least one game designer involved who's books I will never seek out because of the way he addressed non combat encounters. (What if I want to go traipsing through the fairy gates to interact with the little people?)

You know, having worked with the author this statement was attributed to in his previous job and hearing about some of the uses he was putting D&D (and other rule sets) to and the articles he was writing at the time, I would have thought him the designer most likely to have great fun running a game that involved something other than killing things and taking their stuff... and that includes traipsing through fairy rings.

I've never been entirely able to square the person with that statement... other than to assume that it was the party line more than a statement of personal belief.
 

You know, having worked with the author this statement was attributed to in his previous job and hearing about some of the uses he was putting D&D (and other rule sets) to and the articles he was writing at the time, I would have thought him the designer most likely to have great fun running a game that involved something other than killing things and taking their stuff... and that includes traipsing through fairy rings.

I've never been entirely able to square the person with that statement... other than to assume that it was the party line more than a statement of personal belief.

I've mentioned this in other threads, and I admit that the statement can look bad out of context, but I don't think it was quite meant the way most people read it. Especially with the shift in 4E towards more "creepy fey out of folklore" and less "friendly sprites out of Disney movies", I don't imagine he was trying to say that wandering into the faerie realms and interacting with the fair folk was inherently a bad idea, just that he wanted it to be more about exploration and adventure than, well, "traipsing" about through entirely harmless fields of sunshine and flowers.

Admittedly, just my interpretation of the statement, and I can get how it would rub some folks the wrong way. But given all the other stuff he's done, it seems a shame to avoid it all based on that one statement alone.
 

...Especially with the shift in 4E towards more "creepy fey out of folklore" and less "friendly sprites out of Disney movies", ...

I haven't read the previews, only such quotes. But when I heard this, I took it to mean, more or less, "If you are going to have Disney fairy land, might as well not bother."

In that particular example, it doesn't bother me, because I agree with it. But there are plenty of ways that one could change the nouns around, that other people might buy, that I would find a trifle pushy. For example, "If you are going to have Princess Bride quotes in your semi-serious roleplaying scene, might as well not bother." I don't agree with that at all. :lol:
 

I've mentioned this in other threads, and I admit that the statement can look bad out of context, but I don't think it was quite meant the way most people read it. Especially with the shift in 4E towards more "creepy fey out of folklore" and less "friendly sprites out of Disney movies", I don't imagine he was trying to say that wandering into the faerie realms and interacting with the fair folk was inherently a bad idea, just that he wanted it to be more about exploration and adventure than, well, "traipsing" about through entirely harmless fields of sunshine and flowers.

Admittedly, just my interpretation of the statement, and I can get how it would rub some folks the wrong way. But given all the other stuff he's done, it seems a shame to avoid it all based on that one statement alone.
Given the number of 3.X adventures, including some by WotC, where 'traipsing through the fairy gates' meant dealing with the 'creepy fey out of folklore', that just does not wash with me, especially since he followed it with a breathless exclamation that D&D is all about combat.

Sorry, done with him. It came far too close to yelling 'let's cater to the lowest common denominator! Plot? You don't need it! Mystery? Screw that! Just go kill something!' Pheh.

I swan, that series of previews did more to turn me off 4e sight unseen than any competitor could have. And they charged money for the privilege. Thank the gods above and below that I was not one of their suckers.

The Auld Grump
 

I took a private delight in reading the preview books at used book stores almost as soon as they were in print, then traipsing... er, sorry, ADVENTURING!... back home to the Intarweb to mock the contents thereof. Whatever 4e's virtues, the 4e team did a poor job of marketing it to people who actually like fantasy.
 

I took a private delight in reading the preview books at used book stores almost as soon as they were in print, then traipsing... er, sorry, ADVENTURING!... back home to the Intarweb to mock the contents thereof. Whatever 4e's virtues, the 4e team did a poor job of marketing it to people who actually like fantasy.

I probably shouldn't say this...

I'm not 4e fan, and maybe it's just me (probably is), but this just strikes me as petty. Perhaps it's just the presentation of it, or perhaps I missed something in the text. It just seems like such an odd thing to be proud of.
 

that series of previews did more to turn me off 4e sight unseen than any competitor could have. And they charged money for the privilege. Thank the gods above and below that I was not one of their suckers.
We've had this conversation before, and maybe it's a mistake to rehash it, but I'm a sucker . . .

Worlds and Monsters is, in my view, one of the best GMing books published for a mainstream RPG. The 4e DMG would be significantly better if most of its advice on adventure and campaign design was dropped, and replaced by the contents of W&M.

One of the strengths of the 4e DMG is that it gives advice on how to design a combat encounter not from the perspective of ingame reality and likelihoods, but from the metagame perspective of a GM trying to put together a fun game.

W&M has the same sort of advice, only rather than being addressed to combat encounter design, it talks about the way using different sorts of creatures and world/story elements contributes to a fun game. The only analogue to this sort of discussion in the actual DMG is its discussion of langugaes, which explains, from the metagame point of view, why their are only 10 languages and how the GM is expected to use languages in the game. (Contrast the Monster Manuals, which contain lots of fiction about the monsters - ie the relevant story material - but don't have anything at the metagame level that advised the GM on how to use this fiction in the context of setting up and running a game.)

For those who think that 4e suffers from being focused excessively on combat, I would expect that including big chunks of W&M in the DMG would significantly improve the game. Because it would make it clear that when designing a fun game, the GM can usefully think not only about the tactical elements of encounter and scenario design, but about the story elements also.
 

Yes we have. I did not change my opinion then and I will not change that opinion now.

The preview books were an outright money grab with people paying for the advertising. Taken as a whole they were a second rate con job that should never have been run by a first rate company.

The books attempted to paint previous editions of the game in a poorly fashion, dismissed styles of play that did not fit the limited paradigm of their forthcoming edition, and the time spent writing them could have been more profitably spent on a conversion guide.

And they charged the same amount for the advertising brochures for 4e as they had for the first printing of the 3e core books.

The books are not something that I consider in any guise to be the best of anything. And given that I am not the only person that they alienated I would have to say that they did rather badly at their intended goal - that of an advertisement for the new edition, paid for by the consumer.

I am being more direct this time, because you seem to feel that trying to change my mind is somehow something that I might welcome.

It is not.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I did not take perverse pleasure in reading those books - instead I felt angry.
 
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