Forked Thread: What is the difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy?

Fantasy is that branch of fiction which addresses the question, "What is the meaning of good and evil?" by imagining abstract concepts in tangible form. Science-fiction is that branch of fiction which addresses the question, "What does it mean to be human?" by imagining things which are not human and comparing and contrasting those things with humanity.
You're right; we've had this discussion before; it feels eerily familiar.

I'm still astounded by this definition, though, as it seems to leave such iconic and definitive fantasy works Howard and Leiber out, or any of the early pulp writers for that matter (and any subsequent writers who imitated their style or themes, of which there were many.)

I think it's best served as "that's Celebrim's definition, which while interesting from a literature or philosophical perspective, offers little value to those of us here who simply want to categorize works based on what we can expect them to contain."
 

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Fantasy literature, as read by denizens of ENWorld, is stagnating. Ever notice that whenever literature comes up, everyone mentions Howard, Moorcock, and then... the thread trails into silence?

No, because it doesn't. Apparently you've missed the long discussions of George RR Martin, Robert Jordan, and others.

While it doesn't trail into silence, literature discussion here is usually limited to the areas of the fantasy genre that D&D comes close to emulating. a great many works in the genre today are "urban fantasy" - fantasy tropes in a modern setting, which D&D does a pretty lousy job with.

And, as an aside - William Gibson and the Cyberpunk Crew would like to object to the idea that katanas = fantasy :p

Genres are best defined as collections of tropes commonly used together. There's no clean division between genres, because some tropes are used by multiple genres. Firefly was sci-fi, though it used many Western tropes, for example.
 

No, because it doesn't. Apparently you've missed the long discussions of George RR Martin, Robert Jordan, and others.
Ah yes, how could I forget those two?
While it doesn't trail into silence, literature discussion here is usually limited to the areas of the fantasy genre that D&D comes close to emulating.
Literature discussion here is usually limited to the areas of the fantasy genre that people who grew up reading Howard, Moorcock, Martin, and Jordan believe D&D best emulate.
 


Which gives most fantasy setting a very unrealistic/unbelievable feel. Humans have always used the tools at hand to improve their life, so why wouldn't they do that with magic?

It depends on the magic and how it works. You can take ten people off the street and teach them how to build a mill or a simple bridge in fairly short order, provided they don't have any grossly abnormal physical or mental defects. People built mills and bridges centuries before there was any such thing as a dicipline of engineering.

Magic, as it's usually portrayed, isn't something 'just anyone' can do. Sure, there are some settings where it is and those settings tend to be the ones where magic is used much like we use technology. Take the Ethshar series by Lawrence Watt-Evans: almost anyone who wants to pay attention can learn certain types of magic, and they treat magic as another type of crafting.

Usually, though, magic is something only special people can do, or requires a great deal of time and training before it can be used - thus, there are not many practitioners. New knowledge and new techniques spread slowly. Also, wizards are traditionally jealous of their art. Science and progress depends on people who share what they know, and who share it relatively unselfishly. Wizards traditionally are exactly the opposite. They don't want other wizards doing what they can do; they accumulate power for it's own sake. They also don't see why they should enrich the lives of those who didn't endure the work and danger of becoming a wizard themselves. You should know several professional people in your personal life that are exactly like that; they enjoy having power over others and will never give up something that makes them special.

Another reason is that magic in most stories is not science. Science is reproducable. If I invent a new type of plow, draw up that diagram and send it off to the blacksmith in a distant village then he can make more of them. Lots of times, you can't do that with magic. Many wizards spend most of their time constantly re-inventing the wheel.

Think of wizards as artists instead of scientists. You have a written peice of music. It has notes and bars and all the rest; it's like a formula. But each performance is different because the conductor - the wizard - is different. Working from the exact same 'plan', three different conductors will effectively produce three seperate peices of music. Compare the timeline of advances in music with advances in science; music has a significant advance about once a century. The big advance last century was Jazz, which lead to Rock and Roll.
 

Lkh

I preferred her early books. and other authors that dealt with the question: what happens when "monsters" get rights, and are living alongside modern humanity.
 


Fantasy literature, as read by denizens of ENWorld, is stagnating. Ever notice that whenever literature comes up, everyone mentions Howard, Moorcock, and then... the thread trails into silence?

That's because the thread usually gets crowded with people who's sole definition of fantasy starts and more importantly stops with the Holy Gygax Reading List and everything after that is 'crap' or 'marketing floss' or 'polluted by modern values' or other such silliness. A lot of the rest of us realize that there's no real point in discussing modern fantasy with them.

It's a good list. Ever single thing on it should be read to give you a firm grounding in fantasy lit. And then you need to go on after that and read, seek out, more fantasy. Read reviews. Don't judge books on their cover (I've missed some good ones by falling into that trap) or their back marketing copy. Take chances.
 


Science fiction more often resembles something approaching art. Fantasy, not so much.
Huh. My experience is the opposite.

Maybe I've just happened to read more good fantasy and less good science fiction, but I often find that science fiction is "idea fiction"—written by amateur scientists who have little understanding of what makes a good story, but want to trumpet either some interesting scientific principle or moralize some philosophical point.

There's very little science fiction (that I've read) that approaches art. Or even decent literature.
 

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