Forked Thread: What should Darksun 4e include?

[Mokona]

I'd say, "Reset back to day one as presented in the very first Dark Sun supplement."

I don't think my request is close to what Wizards of the Coast would do since they're invested in the fiction they've published for Dark Sun. So the next best option to complete reset would be advancing the storyline 1,000 years but without the spellplague gimick of Forgotten Realms.

 

[arscott]

If Dark Sun returns, it's going to get a cosmic overhaul, because the Manual of the Planes flat out states that all of the published cosmologies will use the default Points of Light cosmology. Athas is even among those specifically mentioned as alternate worlds (and Eberron, Oerth, Krynn, and Toril).

So either a complete reimagining, or a huge timeline jump.

Is a cosmic overhaul necessarily a bad thing?

The world Axis cosmology is actually really convenient for a Dark Sun game, because it increases the emphasis on the elemental planes when compared to prior editions. I think you can take the 4e cosmology, say "There aren't very many astral dominions, and none of the few that exist are homes to any god", and have a cosmology that fits Athas much better than the great wheel ever did. The elemental chaos stays pretty much the same, while the feywild and shadowfell change in ways that make them more reflective of Athas specifically.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The world Axis cosmology is actually really convenient for a Dark Sun game, because it increases the emphasis on the elemental planes when compared to prior editions.

But it complicates it by making no room for The Black. Otherwise, yeah, the World Axis is a better match than the Great Wheal. As long as the statement in the MotP 4e that future products will use the World Axis cosmology leaves open for even more parallel planes, then DS is better off cosmologically than before.

 

[arscott]

Isn't the black mostly synonymous with the shadowfell?--I'll admit to not having the late-stage DS suppliments, so I'm not familiar with the specifics

 

[Dausuul]

Here are my predictions for what WotC will actually do with Dark Sun, keeping in mind the constraints they operate under (specifically, Dark Sun must be fully compatible with all core D&D books, and reasonably compatible with the re-released Prism Pentad).

Races: All of the standard PHB races will be included, but each will get a writeup explaining how it fits into the Dark Sun world. Eladrin will be "city elves" as Tzarevitch suggested. Dragonborn will be merged with dray; they will still be called dragonborn in the rulebooks, but it will be noted that "dray" is a commonly used term, and their origin story will match that of the dray. Tieflings... well, frankly, I dunno what they'll do with tieflings.

In addition, a couple of the old Dark Sun races will be added. Definitely thri-kreen, probably muls, possibly half-giants.

Classes: Divine classes will draw their power from various entities, including elemental forces, sorceror-kings, the Dragon (if there is one), Dregoth, and so forth. There will be appropriate Channel Divinity feats for each. Other classes will be pretty much as written. The PHB wizard class will fill the preserver role, just as in the original.

In addition, a new base class will be introduced - the defiler. Defilers will be arcane controllers with a lot of debuffs and a focus on "screw your friends so you can screw your enemies worse" powers, much like the dark pact warlock in FR. Their signature class feature will be a defilement power that they can use to "power-up" in various ways. Each time this power is used, it triggers a close burst which causes a short-term debuff to all creatures and destroys plant life.

The World: In order to preserve compatibility with the novels while giving themselves freedom to modify the world as they see fit, WotC will go the Spellplague route - that's not to say they'll have an actual Spellplague, per se, but there will be some titanic cataclysm that reshapes the face of Athas. The 4E Dark Sun setting will be several hundred years, maybe as much as a millennium, after the Prism Pentad.

Most of the old cities and sorceror-kings will still exist, but perhaps in altered form. The "big bad" of Athas will either be Dregoth, or a resurrected Dragon. If the latter, the aforementioned cataclysm will almost certainly be connected to the Dragon's return. (It's also possible that Dregoth will complete his dragon metamorphosis somehow and then go on a rampage just as the original Dragon did.)

The History: The new Dark Sun setting will avoid giving more than hints as to the history of Athas. Although the setting will be fully compatible with the events of the Prism Pentad and all the existing Dark Sun lore, it won't actually contain much if any of that lore; there will be references to a few of the Prism Pentad characters and locales, but no overarching timeline. Thus, newcomers to the Dark Sun world, or old fans who didn't like the lore introduced by the novels and the later supplements, will be free to write their own history.

Cosmology: The Shadowfell will fill the role of the Black, and the Astral Sea, which will be dominated by psionic rather than divine entities, will fill the role of the Gray. The Hollow might be an astral dominion or it might be a "domain of dread" in the Shadowfell. The Feywild will exist only in scattered pockets. The Elemental Chaos will be essentially unchanged, though it may or may not contain an Abyss.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Isn't the black mostly synonymous with the shadowfell?

Not in the least. The Gray is synonymous with Shadowfell. The Gray and The Black have no relation to each other. The Hollow is deep within The Black. The Gray was the source of enervating energy that powered necromantic powers, and was where souls went to dissipate into nothingness. The Black was a near empty void reachable where light cast a shadow, yet was unreachable in total darkness whose only residents were halflings imprisoned by an epic ritual. The occupant of The Hollow was the setting's only entity to possibly reach "demigodhood", also imprisoned by an epic ritual.

 

[balard]

I hope they make the thing exactly like the first basic set, and make the novels non-cannon. Eberron works this way, why Darksun can't?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Eberron works this way, why Darksun can't?

Because Eberron learned from past experience, experiences like Dark Sun.

It is easier to keep the genie in the bottle than to let it out and try to put it back in. Eberron has been keeping a lid on the genie, Dark Sun let it out long ago. The genie being epic setting changes.

 

[Melba Toast]

Tyr should be a free city. That's what differentiates it from the rest of the cities of Athas. It doesn't have to be a nice place. It can be just as brutal in it's own way.

Personally, I liked the mysterious tone of the original boxed set, but it was also very limited. Very little was fleshed out. It was the perfect amount of information for a Player, but for the DM it was inadequate. In order to grasp the setting, there were a handful of supplements which i consider absolutely essential to a basic understanding of the setting: Dune Trader, Slave Tribes, Earth Wind Fire and Water, The Veiled Alliance, Ivory Triangle and Dragon Kings.

Dark Sun has always been a complicated setting to run because everything is so foreign. The lack of metal, for instance, required some creative problem-solving on the part of the DM. What does a door hinge in Athas look like? In one of the novels, a door hinge is decribed as leather and bone. Well, ok, but who needs a "pick locks" skill if you can just cut the leather straps that support the door?

I would hope that they release a Players' Guide to Athas with everything from the original boxed set, and then a Dungeon Master's Guide which expands on the complexities of running a campaign in Athas.

And Brom has to do the art.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The lack of metal, for instance, required some creative problem-solving on the part of the DM. What does a door hinge in Athas look like?

I ran into this issue in my first DM attempt. I thought I'd be clever and I borrowed a published dungeon adventure for generic D&D, I spent weeks preparing and making the appropriate flavor changes and story changes . . . I went through and adjusted all the treasure and equipment with monsters.

After making it clear to PCs how rare metal was, the PCs got into the first room in the dungeon and began disassembling the doors, removing the hinges and extracting the nails. They walked in to a treasure trove of Athasian proportions.

HINGES and NAILS!