Forked Thread: Why Ravenloft and 4E May Not Mesh

[M.L. Martin]

Forked from: What do you think the new setting will be, from Ampersand?

That said, I don't recall Ravenloft containing any rules that made it any more 'role-play' oriented than other D&D settings, though I guess that the Tarokka was an attempt at such rules (albeit one that never seemed to work out very well for publishers). For me, Ravenloft always seemed like bog standard D&D steeped in the tropes of Horror easily indentified as originating from other sources (which, incidentally, is why I like it).

Fear, horror, and powers check rules were attempts to encourage roleplaying, although they may not always have been clear and effective in that regard. And Ravenloft is different enough from 'bog standard D&D' that 4E, with its rigid enforcement of the core D&D experience, may prove an ill fit to the setting.

Documenting from Ravenloft: Realm of Terror, affectionately referred to as the "Black Box," some places where the Land of Mists suffers problems or disconnects with 4E assumptions:

Where [a visitor's] essence is displeased, the land reshapes it, muting an offending ability here, redefining a power there.

Commentary: Things not always Working Quite Right is a hallmark of the Ravenloft setting, for better and for worse--and the reliability of character abilities is a hallmark of 4E.

Nonhuman characters usually attract attention. . . . A simple disguise can prevent most of this trouble. Ravenloft's inhabitants rarely see nonhumans. They don't expect to, and more importantly, they don't want to. So unless they're given a good reason to assume otherwise, they prefer to believe a person is human. But Ravenloft's inhabitants also are suspicious. The moment a nonhuman starts to shake their false perception of him, all bets are off.

Scales, snouts, tails and horns are, unfortunately, a bit more difficult to disguise--and rather more offputting--than pointed ears.

Magic, especially in the form of magical items and devices, is less common in Ravenloft than in other realms. Few (if any) magical items are created here. Compared to other worlds, few people live in Ravenloft, and those who do have not lived in here long. As a result, you won't find piles of treasure lying about for the taking. Wealth is not much of a driving force here; survival is. This doesn't mean Ravenloft is void of greed, or that magical items don't exist in this demiplane--they're simply uncommon.
In Ravenloft, magical items don't lie about for no reason. THe ordinary monster does not keep an item he cannot use. If he hoards treasure, he must have a logical and important reason to do so. Otherwise, the "cupboard" may be completely bare. Treasure doesn't accompany an encounter just because players expect it. . . .
In many campaign settings, the search for treasure drives the characters (and their players). This cannot always be the case in Ravenloft. Here, adventurers succeed by keeping their wits and skins; if they foil an evil plot, they've excelled. Survival, in most cases, is its own reward.

Many AD&D adventures go somethingl ike this: the PCs wander from room to room (or over hill and dale), slaying creatures and seizing the spoils, until at last they face the gibbest creature of all, and destroy it, too. In Ravenloft, you might be tempted to substitute a powerful vampire for the "beast supreme" and fill the string of lesser encounters with "Gothic" monsters such as bats, ghouls, and ghosts. Unfortunately, that formula leaves something to be desired: a story.
Dungeon crawls make the worst kind of RAVENLOFT adventure, because they lack a real villain, a real problem, a real plot. In this realm, characters should do more than cast spells and bash monsters--they should unravel mysteries, too. Each encounter should be more than an isolated incident with a bounty attached. It should provide information that helps flesh out the story, and clues that help the characters succeed (or survive). If "spoils" are involved, those items usually should be a part of the story--something useful or telling--not just a trophy to add to the haul.

More documentation can be added if requested, but I think a case can be made that Ravenloft as a setting is fairly distant from the game play assumed by 4E, and woven into so much of the system. The setting could be plundered for one-shot domains of dread, but as a long-term setting (whether natives or outlanders), a 4E Ravenloft would mean that one or the other would have to change a lot.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I think a case can be made that Ravenloft as a setting is fairly distant from the game play assumed by 4E, and woven into so much of the system.

I think the case is made, rather than could be. I had a thread discussing what Ravenloft's core elements were a couple weeks ago and I am still sort of mulling over what rules I would implement in a Ravenloft campaign. Below are my current thoughts, but I wouldn't call them firm.

The first problem is the Fear/Horror, Madness and Dark Powers Checks.

Fear is easy because it's supposed to be temporary (perhaps a duration of 1d4 rounds then 'save ends' afterwards). The only thing you have to decide is what sort of events would trigger a Fear check, and the RLCS provides guidance on that.

Madness and Darkness are supposed to be lasting however, and 4E has few rules for lasting damage; probably the closest is the DMG's Disease Track. You would have to establish Madness and Darkness Condition Tracks and make sure that the conditions are 'bad' while allowing the character to be playable right up to the point when he enters the DM's Rogue's Gallery (you want to give the player a chance to earn redemption). You also need to decide what triggers backwards or forwards movement on the Condition Track.

As for the hostility to non-humans, I would tweak that to make it "make more sense" (for my own campaign), not I would not remove it (for my own campaign or 'officially'). That sort of suspicion of strangers is (IMO) integral to the feel of Ravenloft. Instead of blanket hostility to non-humans though I'd instead assign each settlement a "cosmopolitan score" which determines their openness to strangers (human or otherwise). The "hostility penalty" would effect Diplomacy, Insight and Streetwise checks made in the village and (at the higher levels) prices of items and even whether they can buy equipment or a room at the Inn.

Whether or not to penalize abilities or powers is a tough call. It's also a matter of trust between the players and the DM that there would be a reason for the penalty and that the DM wouldn't 'punish' them for not having it. I don't really know how to handle that.

But treasure I think is the easiest problem of all to solve. I would give each PC a +1 to all Attacks and Defenses (and +1/+1d6 damage on all hits) starting at level 8 and every 5 levels after that. That way there's no real need to make sure all three of the "Big Three" slots are filled up with items of the highest possible level (or magic items at all). Just cap bonuses from items at +1 and leave the "extra" powers to work normally. This would reduce the need to hand out treasure on a regular basis immensely; usually PCs could work for "room and board, and just enough coin to get to the next town." They wouldn't get rich that way, but as the RLCS says, that's not why you adventure in Ravenloft anyway.

 

[Nightson]

I'm really not seeing the conflict here. I mean, you show that Ravenloft will need some adjusting of rules to make it a unique setting and I don't see where that causes problems or is unusual in any way.

 

[M.L. Martin]

I'm really not seeing the conflict here. I mean, you show that Ravenloft will need some adjusting of rules to make it a unique setting and I don't see where that causes problems or is unusual in any way.

The problem, as I've seen other, wiser fans put it, is that Ravenloft subverts key D&D tropes. 2E and 3E were more open to that subversion than 4E is at present, although that may change as the system grows.

 

[Toben the Many]

I think that 4e can fit Ravenloft just as well as 3e could, or any other edition.

I feel that primarily because 4e certainly toned down the big effects that were so common in D&D. Things like Invisibility, Detect Evil, Find the Path, Detect Thoughts, Change Self, and a slew of other spells and effects had to be overhauled or seriously altered in previous editions of Ravenloft, because these things essentially broke adventures that were centered around mystery and investigation.

In 4e, these things are already toned down. In terms of playing low-magic...it's now possible to play with a party that has no magic at all. No wizards, no cleric, no warlocks, etc.

The issue about Ravenloft being a place where Things Don't Work Right - I don't think that aspect is sacrosanct in Ravenloft. If all of your powers work right all of the time, that doesn't make a Ravenloft campaign fall apart at the seams.

The biggest obstacle I see with 4e Ravenloft is getting a group of players to be okay with no using the battle map from time to time. The occasional fight without the battle map can be a great horror experience. 4e can be played without a battle map - it just takes some coaxing of the players to do it.

EDIT: In terms of Horror and Madness - often times these checks basically told you what your character was feeling or experiencing with very little in the way of game data. You could easily set up Horror and Madness checks and simply turn to the PC who just failed one, saying, "You feel incredibly clastrophobic. What do you do? How do you react to this gripping sensation?"

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I think in some regards Ravenloft can actually work extremely well in 4e, not so much as a complete setting. But as a set of modular rulesets and fluff pieces.

The nice thing with 4e is how modular it is. It is very easy to grasp different rules and place them wholesale into your game without much worry. As such the various rules in Ravenloft could be developed as modular and thus easy to be brought into any game besides Ravenloft.

The fluff pieces would be there to bring across various Ravenloft tropes and suggestions, such as the Mist (my personal favourite part of the setting).

The article/book could also have suggestions on adaptations, etc. So how would different races or classes fit in a gothic horror game. What Skill Challenges could be showcased that sort of thing. Also, actually, like we have seen with the Necromancer article there could be different Powers perhaps different Feats (such as the Technique and Gladiator ones) to make the classes feel like they part of the world with some specific abilities. Probably some backgrounds as well.

 

[LostSoul]

Commentary: Things not always Working Quite Right is a hallmark of the Ravenloft setting, for better and for worse--and the reliability of character abilities is a hallmark of 4E.

Do you have some examples of what this would look like? Is this like a Folding Boat sailing against the wind (ye gods!) or Magic-Users having their spells act strange?

Anyways... my thought is that you could add a "trap" to the encounter. Call it "the Influence of the Dark Powers." The level of the trap is how much the Dark Powers care about what's going on at this moment.

How it works would depend on the realm the PCs are in. Let's say they're in ther werewolf place, Kartakass or whatever it is. Here's a "trap":

Trigger: When a PC becomes bloodied.
Attack: +x vs. Will. The PC falls into a bloodlust, and immediately attacks the nearest creature determined randomly. (Or for more fun: On his turn, the PC randomly attacks a creature, moving to do so if necessary, drawing OAs for this movement like normal. He gains a +4 power bonus to attacks and damage. Save ends.)
Countermeasures: Whatever. Maybe some Religion checks or wearing a silver charm or tons of garlic.

 

[Irda Ranger]

The problem, as I've seen other, wiser fans put it, is that Ravenloft subverts key D&D tropes. 2E and 3E were more open to that subversion than 4E is at present, although that may change as the system grows.

Oh, you were making the argument that you just can't do a 4E version of Ravenloft at present? My apologies; I misunderstood.

Let me be clear then: You're wrong. You still have races and classes, advance by means of levels, and often kill things (even if they don't have stuff to take). All the "really core" stuff to D&D is there. There's nothing so different about 4E that you can't play a Ravenloft campaign. Some new rules and systems are needed, as you would expect for any Campaign Setting, but hardly anything particularly hard to imagine or design.

 

[ppaladin123]

Nonhuman characters usually attract attention. . . . A simple disguise can prevent most of this trouble. Ravenloft's inhabitants rarely see nonhumans. They don't expect to, and more importantly, they don't want to. So unless they're given a good reason to assume otherwise, they prefer to believe a person is human. But Ravenloft's inhabitants also are suspicious. The moment a nonhuman starts to shake their false perception of him, all bets are off.

While I recognize that adapting Ravenloft to 4e may take some work, I don't think this particular point is problematic. When I think of Ravenloft I don't think primarily of racist peasants. That detail just doesn't seem integral to the setting. You can simply alter their prejudice to apply to all strangers, make them intensely suspicious of all outsiders.

I'll grant that dragonborn don't exactly fit my ideal when it comes to gothic horror but tieflings? shifters? changelings? the various fey races? They fit quite nicely.

 

[Dragonblade]

Personally, I think fear/horror or madness checks are bad game design. Its one reason I don't play Call of Cuthlu.

Anytime a ruleset tries to force me to play my character in a certain way all it does it anger and frustrate me. I'll decide for myself whether something is scary. I don't need a dice roll to force my character to flee. I hate that.

Now if its magical fear and thus a supernatural compulsion, I'm ok with that. But when the game tries to basically play my character for me, then I leave the table.