Forked Thread: Why Ravenloft and 4E May Not Mesh

I've seen a lot of vague allusions to this - but be specific. What specifically does not work in Ravenloft that is 4e?

Not that you will see them say this but what they mean is 'it is not done in edition X so there for it sucks and does not work'. This is just a very thinly veiled editions war thread and has little or nothing to do with what RL was or is going to be.

*shrug*

Look, it's fine if you want to discuss the subject, but this is off topic and seems designed to start an argument. We'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't try to tell other people what they're apparently thinking. ~ Piratecat
 
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Not that you will see them say this but what they mean is 'it is not done in edition X so there for it sucks and does not work'.


Since you can read the minds of many people at once, could you teach me? That's a really neat trick.

That said, in my case, I could care less about what system for running RL so far as mechanics are concerned, because I'll be ignoring half of them anyway just based on my own playstyle. I'm concerned about the atmosphere and setting details and flavor, not how stat blocks are arranged and what mechanic the mists follow. But the design philosophy of 4e has tended to alter campaign settings and anything outside of the core default to make it fit within than default. It's the arbitrary flavor and setting details that I don't care for.
 

Since you can read the minds of many people at once, could you teach me? That's a really neat trick.

That said, in my case, I could care less about what system for running RL so far as mechanics are concerned, because I'll be ignoring half of them anyway just based on my own playstyle. I'm concerned about the atmosphere and setting details and flavor, not how stat blocks are arranged and what mechanic the mists follow. But the design philosophy of 4e has tended to alter campaign settings and anything outside of the core default to make it fit within than default. It's the arbitrary flavor and setting details that I don't care for.

Could you offer some examples of what elements of the RL campaign setting you feel the current design ideals couldn't handle?
 

It is far from obvious that the changes made to FR were because of 4e's game system. I would think it has more to do with FR's massive bloat causing potential new players and DMs shy away from it.

4E magic system, perhaps? Also, the Channel Divinity-feats come to mind as well (namely the sheer number required for "full" Deities, which meant they had to "weed" them down to twentysomething). And, of course, the Dragonborn and the Tiefling had to be implemented into the setting as widespread and "tolerated" races.
 

I've seen a lot of vague allusions to this - but be specific. What specifically does not work in Ravenloft that is 4e?

"Cosmopolitan, magic-laden adventurers in a racially tolerant, magic-aware world engage in setpiece tactical combat encounters, killing or being killed for power or wealth." There's more to the game than that, yes, and the mechanics do not require it--but that is the core D&D experience as defined by WotC, Ravenloft gets fairly far away from that, and one or the other has to give.
As I keep trying to say, mechanically, 4E has about as many rough edges as any other edition of D&D, albeit in different spots. One possible exception is the emphasis on gridded combat (I'm willing to be convinced that that and Ravenloft can work, but I admit to skepticism, although that may be my own prejudices). It is, instead, a question of how WotC is presenting and marketing the game, and how important it is for them that all their settings and materials fit within that core experience.

Not that you will see them say this but what they mean is 'it is not done in edition X so there for it sucks and does not work'. This is just a very thinly veiled editions war thread and has little or nothing to do with what RL was or is going to be.

*shrug*

Alas! My secret has been unveiled by the Lidless Eye! Exposed as a 4E h8er, I must flee, but I have no place of refuge, having given loyalty neither to the Two Towers of 3.5 and Pathfinder, nor to the Ancient Fortresses of 1E or OD&D (the Stronghold of Diaglo and the Old Geezer). Cut off from friends and allies, I can only huddle in terror and await being dragged before the golden idol of Gygax, to be sacrificed for my blasphemies.
 
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Specific? Here's something I posted in another thread:

Ravenloft, for me, boils down to one pretty basic gameplay motif:

Defend the Fort

In many ways, in standard D&D, and blatantly so in 4e, the basic idea is aggressive -- you go somewhere, you change things, you come back better for the experience. You are encouraged to go out.

Ravenloft is kind of the opposite impetus. You stay in, you resist change, and, if you succeed, you are better for the experience -- better equipped to handle it the next time it comes for you. You are encouraged to stay in.

This kind of urge should be as present for the PC's as it is for the window-dressing townsfolk that farm the dirt of Barovia. Namely, the PC's should feel a strong pressure to hunker down, defend a location, and be thankful with nothing leaping at their throat in this one moment, because that could change in the next. You win not by killing all the goblins, but by protecting your local orphanage from the rampages of dark things beneath the stairs -- if you go out to kill all the goblins, you will die. If you just drive them off...then you'll be fine...for now...

The inherent conflicts that I see all boil down to this: in Ravenloft, the conflict isn't between Good and Evil. It's between Bad and Worse, and often these lines are fluid.

#1: Trust No One vs. Die Alone. In Ravenloft, if you try to achieve something on the power of your own heroism, you will fail, and probably be mocked by dirt-farmers for trying. YOU can't do anything by yourself. At the same time, everyone you do team up with will have some big issues (see below) that are likely to endanger you and everyone around you. A PC is constantly torn between working with people who are stabbing him in the back (even if unintentionally), and working alone against things trying to stab him in the face (again, even if unintentionally). Success lies in balancing these -- trust your friend the Paladin of Pureheart too much, and chances are he'll go mad in his sleep and kill you all. But if you don't trust the Paladin of Pureheart at all, he won't be able to defend you from the Zombie Hoard that is knocking down the walls of your medieval shopping mall.

#2: Skeletons in the Closet vs. Zombies in the Streets. In Ravenloft, everyone has their secret sins and problems -- the Dark Powers have fondled everyone's collective soul, and even the most devout priest of Pelor probably does dark things at night in the privacy of his own priory. However, revealing these things, calling them out and making them well-known, is just going to make the problem into something that hurts everyone. If what that priest does becomes known, it will weaken his position, rendering his family, his friends, his entire community, vulnerable. Every PC should have a secret, and the balance should be between hiding that secret (and the danger it does to you) and having that secret revealed (and the danger it does to everyone around you). Success is minimizing the damage you do to everything around you, and still managing to live.

#3: Save Yourself vs. Save Everyone Else. In Ravenloft, one of the big goals has always been "escape." You don't wanna be here, it's a horrible place, and everybody smells funny and sounds vaguely Eastern European. But that's self-interested...you're also a heroic figure, and you want to end this evil blight upon the land, too. This is ultimately the corrupting influence of the plane -- if you save yourself, you "win" but to win in Ravenloft is to become part of its evil and vile nature. If you save everyone else, you "loose", but loosing in Ravenloft is the only way to keep your soul intact. Success in the context of a game with challenges and whatnot means saving as many as you can, and counting that as better than the alternatives (loosing everyone, or dying yourself).

Ravenloft is thus a defensive game of conservation -- you're more the things defending the MacGuffin than the guys who go to get the MacGuffin.

The things discussed mostly here are just corollaries -- the xenophobia is a trait that NPC's and PC's develop to defend themselves against risking trust in someone that they don't know at all. The prominence of villains over heroes is the result of villains being "pure" and the assertive yang-force in the setting, and heroes never being perfect and being the defensive yin-force in the setting.

It ain't just D&D with vampires instead of dragons.

It's totally possible to do this within the 4e ruleset but I am concerned that the 4e team's mandate to make "everything core" ultimately means that we get the same game with different window dressing, rather than a real exploration of what it means to be a different sort of hero. Standard D&D heroes are action heroes --bustin' up heads and takin' names. Ravenloft heroes are of a different sort: They are scared. They are flawed. They consider saving one house in a town tormented by animate nightmares to be a success, and if the rest of the town fell, it is a tragedy, but to save the rest of the town means to die, rather than to live to fight another day.

This is what concerns me about Dark Sun, too. It doesn't really concern me about Planescape, because 4e isn't so much doing a "planescape setting" as they are using planescape elements in the default setting, which is fair enough.

But ultimately, I think different setting books, rather than just providing maps and menaces, should be providing me a way to play a character that is a different sort of hero, and to run a world that demands that kind of hero. Ravenloft heroes should not be the same thing as FR heroes.

I'm thinking in terms of noncombat challenges, so I'm thinking Ravenloft adds a noncombat challenge -- the morality of the characters.

You can do "scary D&D with vampires," but that is not Ravenloft.
 

"Cosmopolitan, magic-laden adventurers in a racially tolerant, magic-aware world engage in setpiece tactical combat encounters, killing or being killed for power or wealth."
And adapting this gaming style to 4e would be different from 2e or 3e how?

I used to run Ravenloft as my primary setting and really enjoyed the challenges of running 'normal' groups in a racially sensitive world. Racial choice *mattered* instead of just being a stat-bump option.

You can adapt 4e to low magic setting much easier, granting the PCs automatic bumps at vairous levels and limit magic items to one or two per PC. Even focus on non-combat magic items.

And yes, the 4e mechanics are mostly about combat. The original RL module was, for all intents and purposes, a series of setpiece combat encounters. THe big difference was that the world was fleshed out and the NPCs had purpose and reasons for existing. Unlike some other modules where NPCs exist solely because they are CR appropriate..

What specifically does not work in Ravenloft that is 4e?

I would revise that question to be "What mechanically does not work in Ravenloft that is in 4e?"


Re: RL being set 'in' the ShadowFell. I don't know about you, but my RL will be a demiplane in its own secret corner of existance, replete with the Mists.... regardless of what WoTC says. If thier placing it into the Shadowfell means that they will be able to support the setting instead of leaving it lay fallow... then more power to them.


IMHO, RL is about the uphill battle against the power of evil unleashed. Its a world where the 'Heroes' had best consider running away as a valid tactical option and distrust any situation that looks like a 'get rich quick' plan.
Of course, I am also partial to running the original module and RL II: The House of Griffon Hill :)
 

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