Forked Thread: Why Ravenloft and 4E May Not Mesh

[The Ghost]

Ravenloft, is one of the few campaign settings that can really exist beyond the rules. Ravenloft is how you tell the story. The descriptions that you use. The images that you evoke.

I think it certainly can be done in 4e. I can see the Mists and the Dark Powers being used to explain a lot of why the PCs are special and different than the common person. Where their powers came from. I think the minion rules add a lot to what you can do with bats, rats, wolves, zombies, etc. The liberal monster creation rules certainly allow you to make monsters like Adam easier than in 3e.

I do agree with you, however, in regards to non-humans (Dragonborn and Tieflings in particular) as having problems with fitting into the setting. Mostly because I view Ravenloft to be a very Eastern European, very Gothic Earth setting. I view Ravenloft as something that could have existed in our own history. And non-human characters, well, I have a hard time seeing their place in our history. As always, though, YMMV.

 

[Cadfan]

I don't think there's a problem here.

Ravenloft is both a setting and genre shift away from regular D&D tropes. But like any setting or genre book, its ok if a Ravenloft book alters or adds rules. And most of the things that might need altered were things that needed altered a bit in 3e anyways, and that turned out alright.

Its not like 3e didn't have magic items out the wazoo, lovingly detailed player abilities, and rules for PC races that didn't fit into an eastern european based setting.

 

[Fenes]

I expect Ravenloft be adjusted so the setting fits 4E, not the other way around.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Do you have some examples of what this would look like? Is this like a Folding Boat sailing against the wind (ye gods!) or Magic-Users having their spells act strange?

Anyways... my thought is that you could add a "trap" to the encounter. Call it "the Influence of the Dark Powers." The level of the trap is how much the Dark Powers care about what's going on at this moment.

How it works would depend on the realm the PCs are in. Let's say they're in ther werewolf place, Kartakass or whatever it is. Here's a "trap":

Trigger: When a PC becomes bloodied.
Attack: +x vs. Will. The PC falls into a bloodlust, and immediately attacks the nearest creature determined randomly. (Or for more fun: On his turn, the PC randomly attacks a creature, moving to do so if necessary, drawing OAs for this movement like normal. He gains a +4 power bonus to attacks and damage. Save ends.)
Countermeasures: Whatever. Maybe some Religion checks or wearing a silver charm or tons of garlic.

That sounds good.

Ravenloft somehow reminds me of Torgs "Orrorsh" realm.

Basically, in Torg you tend to play action heroes, that can cast, shoot or miracle themselves through a combat encounter. They also can use Taunts, Tricks, Intimidation and so on in combats.
And these heroes - that can usually be relatively confident of their abilities, similar to 4E characters for example - can enter the Horrorsh reality.

And things change. Every world/cosmos/reality has its world rules. All of these laws work against the PCs.
"Important" monsters can't be killed in regular combat. The only way to beat them is finding out their weakness, their "True Death" - and then fight them with this knowledge. Most of the enemies you'll encounter in Horrorsh will scare the extrements out of the PCs because they use Intimidate as an offensive ability and are good at it, aside from also being Werewolves or Vampires that can rip you apart!

Yet, it is not as if anything was taken away from the players. Sure,some might have trouble using their Schmeisser Machine Pistol or Godmeeter Laserrifle in this realm, but they'd have the same problem in Ayles or the Living Lands (and in other realsms, these weapon might seem pathetic). Priests can still use their miracles, and a lot of magic is still available. You can still Trick, Taunt or Maneuver your enemies. (Intimidation became a lot harder, though, but at least it will protect you from the worst things...)

But the overlaying rules of the Orrorsh realm and the design of the common foes change the atmosphere significantly.

I think the same is possible for 4E.
LostSouls idea is a good example.

 

[BryonD]

Personally, I think fear/horror or madness checks are bad game design. Its one reason I don't play Call of Cuthlu.

Anytime a ruleset tries to force me to play my character in a certain way all it does it anger and frustrate me. I'll decide for myself whether something is scary. I don't need a dice roll to force my character to flee. I hate that.

I will just state that you are getting it wrong as far as CoC is concerned.


But setting that aside, isn't playing someone different than yourself a core basis of roleplaying?

 

[BryonD]

As far as Ravenloft / 4E goes, you are just going to get into the exact same disconnect in the discussion as in so many others.

Some people will swear that 4E can't replicate a certain achievement and others will state with certainty that it can and does.

Both are correct.

The difference is that not everyone was getting the same experience before.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Personally, I think fear/horror or madness checks are bad game design. Its one reason I don't play Call of Cuthlu.

Anytime a ruleset tries to force me to play my character in a certain way all it does it anger and frustrate me. I'll decide for myself whether something is scary. I don't need a dice roll to force my character to flee. I hate that.

Think of them like HP. Do you decide for yourself when your PC has taken enough sword-smacks to the face, or do you let the rules decide. Of course you go with the latter. It's just the game's way of saying "You have reached your character's limits." Same for San/Fear/Horror.

 

[Shemeska]

I expect Ravenloft be adjusted so the setting fits 4E, not the other way around.

That seems to be the trend with unique settings and 4e thus far at least. Unfortunately so.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That seems to be the trend with unique settings and 4e thus far at least. Unfortunately so.

You mean the trend established by the several unique settings that were published for 4E.

Err, that would only be Forgotten Realms. And I think a lot of the changes to FR are based on aspects not specific to 4E but rather addressing things that bugged players (I don't know whether majority or minority, let's call them "vocality" - people that were vocal about their dislikes of FR as it was.).

 

[Drkfathr1]

Pg 13 of Manual of the Planes:

The World Axis cosmology only represents one of
many possible planar arrangements for a D&D
campaign. It’s the default setting, and all upcoming
4th Edition DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game products
assume that the World Axis cosmology is the one
you’re using in your campaign. However, you can
create your own cosmology for your campaign.