Forked Thread: Why Ravenloft and 4E May Not Mesh

[M.L. Martin]

How is this different from Ravenloft's relationship to any other edition of D&D?

On Ravenloft's side? Not much.
On D&D's side? 4E is very much a game focused on the 'core D&D experience,' at least as WotC is selling and supporting it, moreso than the looser 2E or even 3E and 3.5. On reflection, the question is not so much mechanical--Irda Ranger did a nice job of identifying some of the mechanical tweaks that will be needed, and other elements (artifacts, rituals, skill challenges) fit Ravenloft like a (bloody? ) glove--as cultural. Is WotC going to be willing to produce a setting that ranges so far afield from the 'core D&D experience'? Something on the flavor side is going to have to give--either Ravenloft acquires some notable differences to bring it into line with 4E's assumptions, or 4E changes some of its assumptions for Ravenloft campaigning.

 

[Scribble]

I know a number of people set entire campaigns there, but Ravenloft always struck me as more of a place you go to from somewhere else for a while, then leave. Planescape I think had a similar vibe.

I'm not sure it's a coincidence that most of the campaign sets that had a "connective" idea have had their bigger ideas (or at least the most well known ideas) moved into the core. I don't think we'll see any of these types of settings (Ravenloft, Spelljammer, or Planescape) as full campaign settings in the near future though.

 

[Shemeska]

EDIT:
That comment was removed as it might have been construed as a personal attack so took it out. Ignore list should prevent that from happening again.

Awesome, I'm on someone's ignore list. Not that they can see this of course.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Originally Posted by Page 14
Where [a visitor's] essence is displeased, the land reshapes it, muting an offending ability here, redefining a power there.

Commentary: Things not always Working Quite Right is a hallmark of the Ravenloft setting, for better and for worse--and the reliability of character abilities is a hallmark of 4E.

IIRC, much of these "redefinitions" had to do with abilities and spells which might disrupt a game of gothic horror and mystery. Ravenloft rules didn't make abilities "unreliable", some simply out-and-out didn't work. Things like "Detect Evil". Clerics and paladins got spanked the worst. Since many of these types of abilities and spells have been removed from 4E, this is one area where the rules and the setting are actually more compatible.

Originally Posted by Page 16
Nonhuman characters usually attract attention. . . . A simple disguise can prevent most of this trouble.

Scales, snouts, tails and horns are, unfortunately, a bit more difficult to disguise--and rather more offputting--than pointed ears.

Not much more difficult than hiding the fact that you're 1/3 the size of a human with giant feet. In this regard, any race other than human and, marginally, elves/half-elves would have drawn unwelcome attention, thus limiting the choice of core races suitable for play in all editions. So, nothing changed here.

Originally Posted by Page 55
Magic, especially in the form of magical items and devices, is less common in Ravenloft than in other realms.
[...]
In many campaign settings, the search for treasure drives the characters (and their players). This cannot always be the case in Ravenloft. Here, adventurers succeed by keeping their wits and skins; if they foil an evil plot, they've excelled. Survival, in most cases, is its own reward.

I see no incompatibilities with 4E here. Few items doesn't mean no items, and 4E already has an expectation of fewer items per character than earlier editions.

Originally Posted by Page 136
Many AD&D adventures go something like this: [...]
Dungeon crawls make the worst kind of RAVENLOFT adventure, because they lack a real villain, a real problem, a real plot. In this realm, characters should do more than cast spells and bash monsters--they should unravel mysteries, too. Each encounter should be more than an isolated incident with a bounty attached. It should provide information that helps flesh out the story, and clues that help the characters succeed (or survive). If "spoils" are involved, those items usually should be a part of the story--something useful or telling--not just a trophy to add to the haul.

For a very long time now, most adventures and campaigns have included a story, and are more than wandering room to room collecting treasure. Even most "dungeon crawls" nowdays have plots to them. Trying to say the characterization you quoted above is still valid is a bit disingenuous. In fact, I think mechanics like 4E's skill challenge system would lend itself quite well to a RL style game.

Here's the irony of all this "documentation" you provided, Matthew: they illustrate how RL is different than the core assumptions and common playstyles of AD&D... the system Ravenloft was designed for! So if you try to hold up these quotes as evidence of why 4E wouldn't fit RL, then they also prove that AD&D wouldn't fit it either, and in some cases, even more so!

Now, obviously this isn't true. Could you run RL with 4E out-of-the-box? No. It would take some tweaking. But that's true of all editions. All of them have been sword-and-sorcery fantasy games, so adaptations need to be made to run a gothic horror game with them. But, as I pointed out above, I think there's at least a couple of areas where 4E is a couple steps ahead of other editions in compatibility.

Pg 13 of Manual of the Planes:

The World Axis cosmology only represents one of
many possible planar arrangements for a D&D
campaign. It’s the default setting, and all upcoming
4th Edition DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game products
assume that the World Axis cosmology is the one
you’re using in your campaign. However, you can
create your own cosmology for your campaign.

Not sure how this has any bearing on a RL game. The cosmology outside the demiplane never really had that much influence on adventures there, since there's very little plane hopping anyway.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Awesome, I'm on someone's ignore list. Not that they can see this of course.

Now they can.

Spoiler

We should stop this while it's still fun.

 

[Drkfathr1]

Not sure how this has any bearing on a RL game. The cosmology outside the demiplane never really had that much influence on adventures there, since there's very little plane hopping anyway.

Just trying to point out the design philosopy of 4E thus far.

Sure, you can put Ravenloft in the Shadowfell, and that's a good fit for it. But its certainly not where Ravenloft has always been.

Also a good example of how different campaign settings are going to be forced to conform to 4E rules, not vice versa.

 

[Scribble]

Just trying to point out the design philosopy of 4E thus far.

Sure, you can put Ravenloft in the Shadowfell, and that's a good fit for it. But its certainly not where Ravenloft has always been.

Also a good example of how different campaign settings are going to be forced to conform to 4E rules, not vice versa.

But then again, there wasn't really a shadowfell for it to be in either.

I wonder if there had been if it would have been set there to begin with instead of its own demiplane? As it stands a lot of the core ideas of what ravenloft was seem to have been incorporated into the shadowfell. I think that makes sense with a world like this. Does it really "need" to be it's own place?

Using a lot of its core ideas means people who want to set their entire campaign there can, but those people who also just find it to be an interesting idea to "dip" into and set a few adventures there can do so without having to buy into an entire new campaign setting.

Same thing with Planescape and Spelljammer in my opinion.

 

[Drkfathr1]

Sure there was! It was called the Plane of Shadow.

 

[Shemeska]

But then again, there wasn't really a shadowfell for it to be in either.

From everything I've seen, the 4e Shadowfell is the AD&D/3e Plane of Shadow with a name change.

Does it really "need" to be it's own place?

If you want Ravenloft to retain the atmosphere and depth it possessed over the course of two editions of development, I would say yes. Otherwise you're just making a quasi-horror weekend dungeon in the 4e Shadowfell and calling it Ravenloft. Some may feel differently of course.

To be honest I worry that the overall 4e design philosophy takes that as a major point of adherence when it looks at any and all previous campaign settings, be it RL, FR, Planescape, etc. Everything becomes rapidly homogenous to the point of adsurdity if you won't allow unique campaign settings to retain what made them unique in the first place, and forcing all default 4e elements into them.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

game mechanics are not what Ravenloft is about.
It's very hard to do a Ravenloft game, it's not the usual at all, and many folk can't play that: to let themselves get scared and concerned.

Characters should get driven mad with fear, horror and do odd things at times: they do it in real life! And it's a trope of most fantasy too.

The undead would scare the bejeezuz out of you. Even the "Romero" zombie films make a crucial mistake in that lane, though they do hit on the fear of a relenetless, unceasing enemy.
A dragon would scare you badly, imagine fighting an intelligent flying tyranosaur!!! Yikes!
That's "fear" and folk can just break down from that at times, no matter how brave they are.

But...something that could condmen you to eternal unlife, not merely to kill you, but make it so you are in unnatural torment forever, a thing that that reeks of of "wrongness"....yeah, that's something else again. That's fear deluxe and it could strike horror into you.
D&D characters are more used to undead, as "real things", so less chance of horror, but still...

DM's law trumps game rules. That goes for Ravenloft. Things do not have to work 100% normally.
the sheer fact that things don't work right, is part of the horror.

"You pull your sword from it's sheath, commanding it to burn with fire that will sear your unholy enemy!...But instead, it drips greasy, stinking lard, writhing with squirming maggots!"
(sword now does necrotic damage instead of fire)

Now that will start making players get the creeps!

the dark powers should rarely get involved with players, provided they stick to a moral course. That's part of the threat of Ravenloft.
Dark Sun has thirst; Planescape had will power and philosophy, Spelljammer had the vastness of space, as threats and major items. In Ravenloft, if you go the "easy" path, you may well end upbecoming a permanent denizen...