Forked Thread: ... with an interesting note about 4th edition

[Byronic]

Mongoose's products might sell better if I could actually FIND them in the stores and see if they're good enough to use. A single paragon preview is not enough to be convincing, I want to know what *options* it gives wizards.

 

[xechnao]

Nintendo don't position themselves as competitors to MS and Sony so I'm not sure this is a gateway into their corporate thinking. In any case, I would bet money that if the business and brand managers of D&D went to their execs and suggested under-printing on a product that had to recoup huge (relative to the market) development costs before it was even in the black, they'd be handed their respective hats. 4E hype came to a head with the release of the PHB. That's when the shelves needed to be stocked.

They are competitors in the video game market. Nintendo has differentiated their offer so to gain a monopolistic advantage within the market of video games. There will always be PS3 and Xboxes to sell because they may cover different subsets of appeal but both compete to gain the highest score of the gaming hours available by people.

 

[xechnao]

huge (relative to the market) development costs

What huge development costs? If you include marketing and DDI that might be but I doupt the hugeness that the 4e rules needed to be developed. Also regarding the market D&D is special due to brand power. It does not just compete with other rpgs. It struggles to gain brand power for purposes beyond the rpg.

That's when the shelves needed to be stocked.

And they were. Or weren't they? Was there any shortage that amounted to loss?

 

[ThirdWizard]

First of all, they could be "gaming the numbers" a little bit, like when Nintendo didn't make enough Wiis to appease demand.

You mean by having a larger initial print run than 3e and 3.5e D&D?

 

[BryonD]

When the hell did D&D become the game that had to appease every gamer?

Sorry for the rant.

My only negative thought about it is that they created a radically different game, and yet abandoned support for the old style of play.

As you correctly describe, it is different. It is as if the day the NBA was founded "they" decided to dissolve MLB. There doesn't have to be anything wrong with basketball for the people who like baseball a whole lot more to be unhappy about that.

I do understand why it doesn't make sense to try to split resources. The economic reality simply is what it is. But it still sucks. Big time.

(It is also funny how you can get taking to task for so "outrageously" claiming that WotC "fired" you and then also get taken to task for being disappointed that WotC doesn't target your interests any more. )

 

[wedgeski]

And they were. Or weren't they? Was there any shortage that amounted to loss?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-previous-edition-good-bad-2.html#post4278952

This post by SR suggests that it was the retailers who under-ordered, not the supplier who under-produced. I'm not sure whose side of the argument that reinforces, but it's one of the few pieces of direct evidnce we have. I will continue to strongly disagree with anyone who suggests that WotC deliberately kept supply thin at the start to gain some spurious propaganda value out of a "Hey, we're on our second print run guys!" on Ampersand.

 

[xechnao]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-previous-edition-good-bad-2.html#post4278952

Did it amount to loss regarding the hype effect or did this help it even more?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think that monngoose would do better forgetting 4e...it is the system built on balance...and well Quintessential Wizard showed that once again them and balance...not so good togather...


However I LOVE wraithrecon....

 

[Imaro]

I started playing D&D in earnest during 2E's tenure. While it was the biggest and most popular game, it was not the game for everybody. It was the low maintenance, easy entry game with fun combat. It was also rules light enough to run narrative-style games for those who preferred rules-light for that sort of thing. People who wanted something more realistic, more detailed, a different flavor from what TSR offered, or whatever generally played or at least preferred other games.

Yeah, because 2e wasn't the edition with a setting for everyone. Planescape, Ravenloft, FR, Greyhawk, Birthright, Al-Qadim, Spelljammer, Dark Sun... just to name a few )and most had alternate/add on rules). Oh boy and let's not forget the Players Options line of books totslly crushes your rules-light, narrative-style argument. Perhaps they approached how they would make the game for everyone differently than 3e ... but I still think the mentality was there.

It was with 3E and the OGL that D&D and the d20 behemoth started trying to be everything to everyone. As somebody who prefers both playing D&D straight up the mainstream while preferring wildly different systems when I'm not playing D&D(like Exalted, Vampire, or Rolemaster), I was not a fan of D&D/OGL trying to be everything to everyone.

Uhm see above, no it wasn't. It just advanced what was already in motion. Yet you were a fan of 2e (probably because you ignored all the stuff I talk about above ... the same thing you could have done with 3e)

 

[wedgeski]

Did it amount to loss regarding the hype effect or did this help it even more?

Who knows? You would probably say it helped, I would say it didn't, and neither of us would have hard data either way.