Forked Thread: ... with an interesting note about 4th edition

[darjr]

Every PHB sold isn't a potential player, though.

What? Of course it is. More so than if they didn't buy it.

And, especially, every PHB sold isn't a potential player for you (or for me, or for any random individual).

No, of course not, I even said as much. But on the whole, more people with PHB's is more potential players. EVERY person with a PHB is far more likely to be a potential player. The more that are sold, the more likely some are sold to people in my area. Your grasping at straws here, why would most people buy the PHB? So they could argue on forums? Or so they could, potentially, play the game?

Good general PHB sales doesn't mean I'm more likely to find players, really.

Yes it does. How could it not? Are these people buying the book because they don't want to play?

It doesn't mean they like it, though. It means they bought it. Maybe they bought it and hated it.

Yes, of course, but the flip side of that is they bought it with the intention of finding out if they wanted to play. Some of those buyers are going to play it and some like it. The more buyers there are, the more of those people there are. The more of those people the greater chance of some of those people being in my area. It is really that simple.

D&D spreads like some of niche music, in general -- like a piece of culture, passed from people who know about it to outsiders who are might be interested in it. You find D&D is relevant to you because your buddy down at the comic book shop is playing a game and wants you in. Or, at least, that's the way I spread D&D (and other PnPRPGs). That's how I found D&D, and most of the people I've introduced to D&D found it through me. They didn't ask about sales at their local borders store.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. What more sales means is that that pool of people your talking about is larger, period. It means that your chances of finding someone that plays and wants you to play is that much greater. I think we are saying the same thing.

Sales don't know you half as well as your friends know you, and I wouldn't buy anything just because it hit some sort of sales milestone. "Over 100,000 sold!" doesn't mean anything to me personally. It certainly doesn't give ME a reason to buy it.

It's possible I'm a freak of nature, but my third nipple and fifth eye and thirteenth fingers all say that I'm not.



Not really. People buy things they hate all the time (ah, brand loyalty!). And even if it was, it'd be a lousy indicator that I would like it. Sales figures generally don't sell D&D products. Word-of-mouth sells D&D products, just like it sells a lot of music in recent years.

Who is arguing that the sales numbers or the sales themselvs can turn people into players of the game? Maybe thats true but It isn't my argument, and I'm not sure it is the point with the sales numbers in this thread.

My argument isn't that large sales turns people into players. Not at all. I'm saying that the more sales the more potential players.

You've got the cart before the horse.

 

[xechnao]

So you're thinking that they reprinted a whole bunch of books they don't need to reprint (since they hadn't sold out yet), just so they can brag about the first print run selling out fast?

Of all the things written above this sentence to be hard to believe, I think that's the top one. That would be late-TSR level stupidity on the business-management meter.

Why are you saying so? Couldn't they reprint just the gift sets? I do not know a lot about printers but this sounds a bit surprising.

 

[The Little Raven]

So you're thinking that they reprinted a whole bunch of books they don't need to reprint (since they hadn't sold out yet), just so they can brag about the first print run selling out fast?

Especially when you consider they're on the third print-run now, which, by this theory, would state that they didn't sell out their first print-run like they claim, yet were stupid enough to order TWO additional print-runs.

 

[Scribble]

If 24,400 people go to wizards.com then 4 go to tsr.com if alexa.com's numbers mean anything.

Nice little interesting chart (daily avg for last three months per 100,000,000 internet users)

4 tsr.com (redirects to WOTC D&D page)

Thats pretty awesome to know you are one of 4 people who go to a website...

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page rulez baby!

 

[Imaro]

So you're thinking that they reprinted a whole bunch of books they don't need to reprint (since they hadn't sold out yet), just so they can brag about the first print run selling out fast?

Of all the things written above this sentence to be hard to believe, I think that's the top one. That would be late-TSR level stupidity on the business-management meter.

Uhm, no…I’m thinking the gift sets and single books were all part of the same print run, but the gift sets were packaged differently. I also remember their being numerous posts during 4e’s release of the core gift sets being sold out and people actually waiting for them rather than purchase single books (not to mention the gift set was cheaper on Amazon than buying the books singly. So they sell out of the gift set, and do a second print run (as we do not know the size of this run or the 3rd print run in comparison to 3e or 3.5 they may not have printed “a bunch of books just to brag…”) it could be just enough to restock on giftsets, and it would still be a 2nd and 3rd print run. Even the bestseller list info we got could support this, so why is it so hard to believe. Now please lets hear some logic as to why this couldn’t be possible.

Especially when you consider they're on the third print-run now, which, by this theory, would state that they didn't sell out their first print-run like they claim, yet were stupid enough to order TWO additional print-runs.

Ok, I see nothing in your statement that contradicts in a logical manner my proposed situation. If the demand for gift sets was high enough, especially at the cheaper price and the single DMG and MM weren't selling anyway how would this have been a “stupid” move. And them selling out of print runs to distributors is not the same as the store selling out to actual customers.

 

[Scribble]

It doesn't mean they like it, though. It means they bought it. Maybe they bought it and hated it.

Always possible.

I'd still be willing to bet the majority of people who actually go out and buy his album do so because they like it.

It also doesn't mean that MOST people like it. Going gold isn't very big news for someone like Kanye because the distribution system in place is so huge that you need to go gold practially just to fill store shelves.

Stores seem to stock stuff they believe/know will sell. Stuff usually sells (aside from nessesities, which Kanye West is not...) because people like/want it.

How do you actually look for new music? Do you scan the billboard top 100 list, or do you ask your friend what that sweet track he played at the party was?

A little of both. Sometimes I'll hear a song and like it, and look for that song. Sometimes when I'm in the mood for music, but don't have anything in particular I'll scan the top ten lists.

Do you request sales figures from the distributor, or do you do a google search for that soundtrack you liked the music of?

Uhhh I guess top 10 lists can be considered sales figures. So a little of both.

Do you follow a band? Or do you follow trends?

Again probably a little of both. If I like a band I'll probably continue to like it. But more popular stuff tends to be played more on the radio or in clubs or at bars, or on tv, etc... Which means I'll be more likely to hear it.

Do you care what's gone gold? Would you not buy the Kanye album if it didn't go gold?

Depends. Not going gold isn't an absolute indiocator of bad, just like going gold isn't an absolute indicator of good. Going gold means it's more prevailant which means I'm more likely to encounter it. If I haven't encountered it, I probably won't buy it... Because I have no idea what it is.

Assuming you're not a fan of Jay-Z, would you then buy the Jay-Z album because it's ranked high on Itunes?

I think you're either confusing or for some reason twisting what I'm saying.

I'm not saying something selling a lot, or going gold means you HAVE to for some reason robotically go out and buy it. It just means that if this thing falls into a category of something you like, and lots of other people who also like that category seem to be buying this thing, then chances are, you're also going to like it.

Is it a guarabtee? Of course not. But there's a much higher probability that you will in fact like it/ want to purchase it.

D&D spreads like some of niche music, in general -- like a piece of culture, passed from people who know about it to outsiders who are might be interested in it. You find D&D is relevant to you because your buddy down at the comic book shop is playing a game and wants you in. Or, at least, that's the way I spread D&D (and other PnPRPGs). That's how I found D&D, and most of the people I've introduced to D&D found it through me. They didn't ask about sales at their local borders store.

Uhh if you say so... You speak as if you have some sort of absolute knowledge.

[

 

[Dragon Snack]

Sadly, people are sheep. If something is selling well, many of them will want to jump on the bandwagon - lest they get left behind...

That said, in my job as a DJ, I basically have to scan the top 10 lists to buy music that I could care less about, since that's what people will usually request (and dealing with the "You don't have *insert artist of the week*!? What kind of DJ are you!?" gets old fast).

As to the sales figures, of course it sold well - they are the core books and they have D&D on their cover. Add in the cut throat Amazon pricing (under $60 with no sales tax and free shipping) and it couldn't lose. But that doesn't mean every one of them is playing it. How many of us have RPG books sitting on our shelves that we will never play (or only played for a few sessions before moving on/back to something else)? "Sales" mean nothing, even if you work for the company (see layoffs thread).

It's the rift in the D&D player base that's the real problem...

 

[Fifth Element]

Uhm, no…I’m thinking the gift sets and single books were all part of the same print run, but the gift sets were packaged differently.

Yes, that seems most likely. So why would you think they would do a second print run just because they're out of gift sets?

So they sell out of the gift set, and do a second print run (as we do not know the size of this run or the 3rd print run in comparison to 3e or 3.5 they may not have printed “a bunch of books just to brag…”) it could be just enough to restock on giftsets, and it would still be a 2nd and 3rd print run.

Why would they do this if they had unsold PHB, DMG and MM? Repackaging existing product would be much more cost-efficient that printing a whole bunch of new books just for the gift sets. Print runs achieve their cost efficiency due to high volumes.

Even the bestseller list info we got could support this, so why is it so hard to believe. Now please lets hear some logic as to why this couldn’t be possible.

Sure, it's possible. Perhaps you can provide some evidence which might lead us to think it's true, though? 'Possible' and 'relevant' are very different things.

 

[Fifth Element]

Why are you saying so? Couldn't they reprint just the gift sets? I do not know a lot about printers but this sounds a bit surprising.

If by 'gift sets' you mean 'gift set boxes', the things in which you put the three books to make it a gift set, obviously yes you'd have to have a new run for those. But the books for the gift sets would not be printed separately than those not intended for the gift sets. There would be no 'gift set run' of the books themselves.

 

[Fifth Element]

It's the rift in the D&D player base that's the real problem...

Yes, but implying that people who buy 4E are "sheep" will help heal that rift in no time!