D&D 4E Former 4E doubter , I have high hopes now

[Plane Sailing]

That is correct. My point is: if you didn't have the protection of a mod, you'd be getting dog-piled AGAIN, and it would be deserved AGAIN.

If you remove your head from wherever it currently resides, things won't have such an easy time going over it.

Good luck, -- N

I don't know in what way you think this is acceptable, especially after the most recent warning.

Suspended for a week. Please don't get drawn into arguments and name-calling, just walk away, OK?

 

[Desdichado]

I don't think this is at all true. 4e has virtually nothing in common with AD&D excpet for sharing a few fantasy tropes, and is a significant departure from 3E, bascially ditching all the lingering AD&Disms.

Virtually nothing in common?! That strikes me as a wild exaggeration of the grossest order. Even saying that 4e looks like it will ditch most of the lingering AD&Disms---heck, based on the news we've seen so far, even saying that it will ditch many of the lingering AD&Disms is a gross exaggeration and wildly inaccurate.

 

[pemerton]

Virtually nothing in common?! That strikes me as a wild exaggeration of the grossest order. Even saying that 4e looks like it will ditch most of the lingering AD&Disms---heck, based on the news we've seen so far, even saying that it will ditch many of the lingering AD&Disms is a gross exaggeration and wildly inaccurate.

I guess it depends on how you characterise an AD&Dism.

I tried to list the relevant changes in the body of my post, and (compared to AD&D) I'm really not sure what is left.

Some terminology (hit points, AC, class names, race names) and rolling a d20 to hit in combat is about it. The game has a different character build system, a different set of race mechanics, a different action resolution system, a different XP system, a different adventure design system, a different set of success conditions (ie over the encounter, not the expedition), etc, etc.

HeroQuest and RQ both happen in Glorantha, but they're completely different games.


AD&D and 4e will both have Fighters killing Orcs, but likewise, as far as I can tell, are completely different games.

 

[Shazman]

Raises hand.

I was thrilled back in August. Now I'm just looking for some scraps to re-tool into my 3X stuff.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I might eventually play or even run 4th edition, but only if I can go into it with the mentality that it's not D&D. It's just another fantasy RPG loosely based on D&D. Otherwise, I'd be extremely disappointed.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

How can't that be D&D?

The rules have changed, it's more of the same though.

 

[Zaruthustran]

AD&D and 4e will both have Fighters killing Orcs, but likewise, as far as I can tell, are completely different games.

Well, yes. That's true.

I'm sorry, but what is your point?

That's a serious and honest question. The product is called "Dungeons & Dragons Fourth Edition". The entire purpose of the product is that it is a brand new game. That's what it is.

I don't understand what the alternative could be. If they just reprinted AD&D, then they'd call that "AD&D", and maybe update the print run information on the inside cover. That's not what WotC has set out to do with this product, and chastising a brand new game for being a brand new game... I mean, wow, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[Desdichado]

I guess it depends on how you characterise an AD&Dism.

I tried to list the relevant changes in the body of my post, and (compared to AD&D) I'm really not sure what is left.

Some terminology (hit points, AC, class names, race names) and rolling a d20 to hit in combat is about it. The game has a different character build system, a different set of race mechanics, a different action resolution system, a different XP system, a different adventure design system, a different set of success conditions (ie over the encounter, not the expedition), etc, etc.

HeroQuest and RQ both happen in Glorantha, but they're completely different games.


AD&D and 4e will both have Fighters killing Orcs, but likewise, as far as I can tell, are completely different games.

All of those things that you call different: I call extremely minor tweaks to the exact same thing it's always been.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

All of those things that you call different: I call extremely minor tweaks to the exact same thing it's always been.

I'm afraid Pemerton's case is really very strong and well-worded. 3E and 4E aren't "entirely different games", but AD&D and 4E pretty much are. Bad thing? No, not at all, I think 4E will be awesome, but calling the differences "extremely minor tweaks" seems really silly, to say the least.

These are really significant changes that will have a very meaningful and, to my mind, largely positive effect on the game and it's playability.

 

[Xyl]

Fourth Edition has the same resemblance to OD&D that a Ford Focus has to a Model T.

 

[PeterWeller]

Fourth Edition has the same resemblance to OD&D that a Ford Focus has to a Model T.

I can't tell if this is a simple, new car/old car metaphor or a more elaborate, chintzy sh*tbox/icon of American culture metaphor.