Fortune Cards: and randomized collectible cards come to D&D

[Imaro]

This is what is known as a Straw man fallacy.

No it's not, a little hyperbole on my part perhaps... but there have been claims in this threadt that WotC is doing this (selling boosters) to help the FLGS, when in fact we now learn that WotC has saddled the FLGS with all the costs of running this... including providing the actual game. So no, it's not a strawman fallacy.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Yes I am aware of this... again, what does it have to do with the point I am making that I do not want to pay WotC to demo their products?

This is where we have such a disconnect. Everything is binary with you. Either we're helping the store OR we're paying WotC. There is no allowance in your philosophy for the fact that both are occurring.

You do realize that paying the store directly would put that $6 towards them right?

Sure. But without the big name product association, all the advertising WotC is doing for the program, the store locator, and so on, which all should be increasing foot traffic to the individual stores, you'd have far fewer people.

Would you rather take $6 from 2 people or $1.50 from 10 people? The fact you're also passing more money onto WotC doesn't detract from the fact that your profit increased by 25%. And you did what you are good at, running the game locally, while WotC did what they were good at, mass advertising and an organized web presence.

And all this says nothing about the simple fact of getting people used to opening their wallets in a given location. I think people forget how powerful that can be.

Or buying a gift card would probably attract a wider market, since people will be able to spend it on what they want, right?

Now THAT would be insanely altruistic, far more so than anything I've suggested WotC is doing. Free money to potentially spend on someone else's product?

I think they're doing a good thing (helping FLGS's) because it also is good for them in terms of growing the hobby at a grassroots, local level. They can't put a DM in a box, but if they can get new players plugged into those little communities, it's about the same thing. But of course they're going to prefer to use that position to leverage their own product primarily.

This isn't a black hats/white hats situation. It's WotC doing something that looks smart for them, but does have (I think) a positive downstream effect on local gaming communities.

By the by, I've heard exactly the opposite about stores providing product. i.e. that stores are getting one free demo copy for running these. Does anyone have actual inside info on this? Perhaps it's tied to that tiered store system wherein higher tiers get more perks?

But either way this plays out, you're still employing informal fallacy. No one said WotC is being purely altruistic. But by playground rules, I think they're slightly in the positive. They're leaving the situation better than they found it. Might not be enough better for your tastes, but it's still better.

 

[fanboy2000]

Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find.

What I don't like is WotC shunting off the cost of demoing it's product to the FLGS and customers... especially now that it's come up they aren't even providing free demo games. So what exactly is WotC providing for this demo that isn't being paid for by the store or customer?

You know, I was wondering the same thing. So, I went to My Events and downloaded the pdf Wizards has for it.

KIT CONTENT DESCRIPTION
Each kit contains enough materials to run 2 tables. Each table can consist of 1 DM and up to 6 players (4 or 5 per table is OK). Your kit contains the following materials:

• A D&D GAMMA WORLD adventure entitled “Trouble in Freesboro” packaged with a double-sided poster map detailing all the combat encounter locations (2 copies). The focal point of the event, the adventure is designed to be played in about 4 hours, including character creation. Give this adventure to the Dungeon Masters (DMs) that will be running the adventure.
• 15 copies each of two different GAMMA WORLD promo cards – Dehydrated Scientist and Power Mimic. Give one Dehydrated Scientist card to each DM at the beginning of the game, and give out one card to everyone participating at the conclusion. Each player and DM should take home one of each card.
• Flyers promoting upcoming products and events. Hand these out to anyone at your location, whether they’re playing the adventure or just showing up to hang out.
• A DM cheat sheet. This sheet covers important differences between D&D 4th Edition and the GAMMA WORLD game. Copy a few of these for each table.
• A GAMMA WORLD character sheet. Copy and hand out a character sheet to every player at the event. They need a character sheet to participate in the Game Day, as they will be creating characters at the table under the DM’s guidance.
• GAMMA WORLD character origin cards. Print out (on cardstock, if you’d like) a set of these cards for each
  table and hand them to the DM. They will help
  expedite the character creation process. • A session tracking sheet. Hand out the tracking sheets
  to the DMs so they can fill in the player information for you to report. Reporting instructions are also included for you in this document. You may use Wizards Event Reporter to report instead of the online tool.
• This instruction sheet. What you’re reading right now. Make sure to read through all the instructions in this document before the event.

I'm sorry I don't understand how this is relevant at all... please expound.

Sure. In the post that I quoted, it seemed to me that you were complaining that someone who paid $6 to play in Gamma World gameday, but didn't like the game well enough to buy it (or actually disliked the game) would be saddled with game pieces they don't want or have any use for. Now, this may not be your main point, but I figured it was one minor point that you wanted to make. So I responded that the game pieces are easy to disposes of, because if you dispose of the game pieces then you no longer have them. Disposing could be as simple as giving them to someone who did like the game.

At the time, I thought you brought it up because you were upset with Wizards over asking people to buy boosters to participate in a gameday. If I misunderstood you, then I'm sorry. I was an art major (sorta), so I'm occasionally prone to reading into things.

Yes I am aware of this... again, what does it have to do with the point I am making that I do not want to pay WotC to demo their products?

It's one thing to not want to give someone money. It's another to complain that someone isn't getting any money or benefit from something that they are.

Again, it's possible that I misread your post. But I honestly thought that maybe you had forgotten that the store gets some of the money. I based this on you stating "it boils down to the fact that I don't want to pay a company to demo their products... but I have no problem paying the shop for it's time and manpower in making that possible." In the GW gameday, the store is getting money.

What seems strange to me (and this is my major point) is that you have no problem giving the store money for running the event, but you do have a problem giving Wizards money for the same thing. Wizards is manufacturing actual product just for this event. Promo cards and adventures aren't cheep. Why do not mind paying the store for it's time and effort, but you mind paying Wizards for theirs? Someone had write the adventure, design the promo cards. I guarantee the printer who printed the cards and the adventure didn't do so for free.

You do realize that paying the store directly would put that $6 towards them right?

Sure. But then, I don't have a problem with Wizards getting some money out of this.

Or buying a gift card would probably attract a wider market, since people will be able to spend it on what they want, right?

Of course. But the store wouldn't get all of that money, some of it would go to the manufacture of the game/product the customer bought with it. The point of the gameday isn't to attract a wider market to other people's products, it's to attract people to buy the game by having fun playing it. Booster packs and all.

 

[nedjer]

More open-ended scenarios, more accessible versions of D&D, lower entry costs, organised GM development . . . and we're concerned about a few cards, (which may help to establish a bridge between Magic and D&D). WotC are making their game, and the hobby, more accessible, which, (along with other stuff), gives them a fighting chance of continuing to offer a premium AD&D 'experience' that can cater for plenty of combat and plenty of other entertainment. 'Essentially' (sorry) they're 'the last, best hope' for future sets of hardback AD&D editions.

CCGs are a highly efficient marketing and revenue raising format, because people like them and find them easy to learn to use. They're very irritating if pitched at young kids, but most teenagers and on have the option of simply making up their own set of roughly similar cards.

 

[buddhafrog]

I listened to the Gen Con introduction of 2011 products including these cards -- and it was said very clearly and specifically that these are not meant to be collected but to be *played*. It was said maybe four times that they are not collectible. They are random in order to make the use a lot more fun.

Pulling this one quote is probably misleading, even if it was said.

I don't know if I'll use the cards b/c I think it gets away from the immersion, but I do know that I'll buy a pack and then decide. Relax everyone. It's your game still.

 

[tomBitonti]

... While $6 may sound like only a small amount to you, there are those like me who have to watch every penny. Added to this the fact that I have 4 kids that might like to do the demo and you've suddenly turned it into a $30 expense for me. So sure, the $6 demo might cast a net wide enough to draw you in, but it would exclude me. ...

The cynic in me is thinking that if a potential buyer who finds the idea of tossing $6 or $30 for a few cards to be meh, or even an affront, is outside of the target market. That is, the filter is working as designed.

To respond to a different post, the Robot Viking unboxing shows that the card packs have rarities (common/uncommon/rare):

Robot Viking » Blog Archive » Exclusive Gamma World Unboxing Video

(That is the same as the link in the news section.)

Are the card packs $6? In my view, the cards are mostly required for the full game experience. Then, paying $6 for 8 cards seems a bit steep (considering that the Dark Sun hardcovers are $15 at amazon). Also, you can achieve a close effect by selling complete decks, and having the DM pulling one "exceptional" ability, three "powerful" abilities, and three "average" abilities from a master deck. I'm disconcerted by the high price, and the inevitable accumulation of commons.

Thx!

TomBitonti

 

[Wicht]

The cynic in me is thinking that if a potential buyer who finds the idea of tossing $6 or $30 for a few cards to be meh, or even an affront, is outside of the target market. That is, the filter is working as designed.

The cynic in you is a poor salesman. I spend quite a bit of my disposable income each year on gaming and I have done so consistently for close to thirty years. I have an entire wall in my dining room filled with games and have every intention of buying more as I like them. Moreover, I introduce others to games I like, even to the point of choosing to buy games instead of toys for most of my younger relations. However, my income is not huge and I have to prioritize my shopping and gaming expenditures. That $30 I spend to let my family try a game we may or may not like could also be spent to buy new flip maps, magic cards, gaming books, or even a whole new board game I've heard good things about. That is, while I am perfectly happy spending $30, if that is all I have to spend on games in a week or two, then forcing me to pay $30 to demo the game with my family is going to sour me on the demo unless I'm at a con and have already budgeted several hundred dollars for doing just that very thing.

Edit: Also, let me mention Cons, 'cuz it is a fair comparison. You pay at a Con for each session you play in. There are two main differences however, for me, between being willing to pay for demos at a Con and being willing to pay for a demo at a gaming store. The first I mentioned above, I save up for Cons and think of it as a vacation for the family. So, just like I would be willing to pay to go on a ride at a park, I'm willing to pay to play games at a Con. That is, while from the sellers point of view the activity (demoing a game) is largely the same, from my point of view it is not the same: the Con is me paying to be entertained; the in store demo is me paying to see if I want to pay more later. The fact I may decide to buy the game at the Con after playing it is irrelevant as again its a different mental approach on my part. I expect to buy games when I go to a Con (like souvenirs at a park but more practical than a cheap plastic mug I'll never use). These games may or may not correspond to the games I try out at the demos; more often then not I do not buy a game after trying it as I can only afford so many games. This leads into the second difference. At the Con I get to pick and choose which game I pay to play from hundreds of choices. A fraction of the games I try out I may buy but I might also choose to buy something I did not try. The price of the game, the playing experience: it all goes together to inform my decision. But still, I get to try multiple games and then choose a few. At the gaming store this experience is narrowed to one game. I get to try one game and either choose to buy it or not. But as my budget probably only allows for either the demo or buying a game, if I spend the money and don't like the game, there is no upside and I am completely without further options till my funds are renewed. Entertainment wise its a real shot in the dark and not necessarily an optimum way to shop on a regular basis. (and for those that raise the theater comparison: I also avoid theaters and rent DVDs through Netflix and Streaming Video so that if I don't like a given movie I'm not out a huge chunk of my disposable income.)

 

[DMZ2112]

Whoops, my apologies; should pay more attention to timestamps.

 

[darktoad]

I'm probably not the first to think of this, but I wrote a quick article about a couple concrete ways to actually use the new D&D Fortune Cards, that avoids many of the issues people have voiced.

I have more details in the article, but in a nutshell you can have the DM pass out the cards as rewards, or...just give em to your monsters (who need all the help they can get).

Using D&D Fortune Cards | CrabShark

 

[Shazman]

Wow. It's like they're trying to prove all the 3.5 fanbois right. Wasn't one of the constant allegations "they're making D&D more like MtG?"

Good thing the D&D department of WotC won't be recieving my money anytime soon.

Yeah, because what 4E really needs is to be even more like a CCG.

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