Found the fun in gaming again

[helium3]

I think it's a couple of things. At the time, I liked how the raise dead spells became more expensive in 3.5. Now, I'm not sure it's such a great thing. I think the loss of all that gold and the experience has made dying a lot more traumatic at lower levels. Our group got a lot more ballsy once we had enough cash to afford true ressurections without worrying too much about the expense.

Also, a party that is too timid is often a consequence of how the DM is running the game. The party always needs to have a sense of how tough a given encounter is likely to be. A DM that doesn't provide that kind of information upfront through some non-tricky role-playing is pretty much forcing the party to always assume the worst. Random encounters should rarely be extra-powerful unless the party has been warned that a particular area they're about to go adventuring in is particularly dangerous.

As for all of the "common wisdom" out there about what should and should not be done, as a DM I'm fairly likely to devise an encounter that plays upon that common wisdom if it becomes a problem, then point out what I'd done after the dust had settled. I accept what we call "meta-gaming" as an essential part of the game, but when it gets to the point that the game stops being about adventuring and starts to be more about avoiding adventure, I call my players on it and tell them I'm not interested in "playing house."

 

[Wormwood]

I see these so often that I rarely play any more:

Don't make any role playing choices if they might be sub optimal or even worse might have a negative impact on the party's power or might come back to haunt you later.

Sorcerers must only take powerful spells and be all about blasting everything or they have no place in the game.

Clerics can never refuse to heal a party member even if that party member has totaaly offended the cleric and his god.

It is bad to ever take the side of an NPC over a PC no matter the circumstances.

I hate, hate, HATE that crap.

Nothing annoys me more than some jerk taking me to task for making a "sub-optimal" choice. Yes poindexter, I realize that my dwarf fighter should be using his free Waraxe proficiency instead of a light hammer and a handaxe. Yes, I know I'm giving up hit probability and damage output. Thanks for the input, geek...now go back to your parent's basement and let the adults play in peace.

 

[The Shaman]

Nothing annoys me more than some jerk taking me to task for making a "sub-optimal" choice. Yes poindexter, I realize that my dwarf fighter should be using his free Waraxe proficiency instead of a light hammer and a handaxe. Yes, I know I'm giving up hit probability and damage output. Thanks for the input, geek...now go back to your parent's basement and let the adults play in peace.

Hey, I played with that same guy!

Elf Witch, perhaps you could refer your GM and fellow players to this article on action in RPGs - it's written for d20 Modern but the same principles apply to other genres. I especially like the conclusion:

In the end, the d20 Modern Roleplaying Game is all about action and adventure, both of which involve some degree of risk. Players who refuse to allow their heroes to take risks might be happier playing Audits and Accountants. Action heroes should be intelligent (or at least brave and loyal), determined, and resourceful. Most importantly, they should act on what they know, not just react and observe. Players who embrace these ideas will get far more out of the d20 Modern game in general and their campaign in particular than those who do not.

IMX one of the biggest problems lies with GMs who take an adversarial stance with respect to the players' characters, compelling the players to adopt a risk-averse approach to the game, rather than rewarding bold strokes.

I think there's a couple of issues here. First, I think some GMs are too clever for their own good - they consistently outthink their players, and the players can never really rise to the challenges presented. (Worse still is the GM who believes this somehow becomes a measure of success as a human being...) These GMs should perhaps focus on creating interesting rather than challenging encounters and adventures - personally I'm much happier when the players say something like, "Whoa, that's cool!" rather than, "Oh crap, we're dead!"

Second, players sometimes do stupid things - unfortunately one player's idiocy may be another's heroic act. Is pulling a sword or 9mm and charging a monster stupid or heroic? It can be either or both, depending on the circumstances. My litmus test is this: is the player's action along the lines of, "I'll stop this thing - you guys get the mcguffin!" or "I charge the monster ('cause I want the attention or I'm bored or I don't know any better)!" In other words, does it enhance or detract from the feel of the adventure? Sometimes the "stupid," "sub-optimal" action is also the coolest, and if the GM or players are steering the game away from that style of play, it may be time to reassess why everyone is sitting down at the table together.

I mentioned rewarding this style of play: for me, sometimes a heroic death or getting tossed in the dungeon or the like is a form of reward - it's a roleplaying reward, which may be just as cool as a new level or a briefcase full of bearer bonds.

I don't know if any of this helps or not, so I'll just say, good luck!

 

[Elf Witch]

Hey, I played with that same guy!

Elf Witch, perhaps you could refer your GM and fellow players to this article on action in RPGs - it's written for d20 Modern but the same principles apply to other genres. I especially like the conclusion:IMX one of the biggest problems lies with GMs who take an adversarial stance with respect to the players' characters, compelling the players to adopt a risk-averse approach to the game, rather than rewarding bold strokes.

I think there's a couple of issues here. First, I think some GMs are too clever for their own good - they consistently outthink their players, and the players can never really rise to the challenges presented. (Worse still is the GM who believes this somehow becomes a measure of success as a human being...) These GMs should perhaps focus on creating interesting rather than challenging encounters and adventures - personally I'm much happier when the players say something like, "Whoa, that's cool!" rather than, "Oh crap, we're dead!"

Second, players sometimes do stupid things - unfortunately one player's idiocy may be another's heroic act. Is pulling a sword or 9mm and charging a monster stupid or heroic? It can be either or both, depending on the circumstances. My litmus test is this: is the player's action along the lines of, "I'll stop this thing - you guys get the mcguffin!" or "I charge the monster ('cause I want the attention or I'm bored or I don't know any better)!" In other words, does it enhance or detract from the feel of the adventure? Sometimes the "stupid," "sub-optimal" action is also the coolest, and if the GM or players are steering the game away from that style of play, it may be time to reassess why everyone is sitting down at the table together.

I mentioned rewarding this style of play: for me, sometimes a heroic death or getting tossed in the dungeon or the like is a form of reward - it's a roleplaying reward, which may be just as cool as a new level or a briefcase full of bearer bonds.

I don't know if any of this helps or not, so I'll just say, good luck!

what a great article I sent it to my group to read. Yhe first description of Biff starting to act then being pulled back happens all the time in our game and it drives me crazy and just makes me tune out and stop caring about what happens next.

 

[EdL]

After that I just stopped doing anything without party approval. My roommate felt the same frustrations of what she termed the new politically correct way of playing that had infected the party. I think it happened because we had a new DM and a new player and our old DM was now playing and that mix just brought out the strategy wargamer mindset. That coupled with all that prior gaming experience of what are the most optimal ways of doing things. It sucked all the creativity and spontaneity right out of the game.

Gaming is supposed to be fun and I think it is supposed to be about heroes who take chances. With my party's mindset Frodo and Sam would never have gone to MT Doom because it would not make sense for low level character who are not even a full party with very few magical devices to try and take on Saron. Nope better wait until epic levels for that. :\

Lots of good advice from others. Something else you might consider is for you and your roomie to decide together that you aren't going to listen to Mr. Not-Me and do your own thing. Right out in front of the rest of the party, as with the bar fight. Either the rest of the group will back you up or the game will fall apart. And since you aren't having any fun with the way its been, what have you got to loose?

 

[Elf Witch]

Lots of good advice from others. Something else you might consider is for you and your roomie to decide together that you aren't going to listen to Mr. Not-Me and do your own thing. Right out in front of the rest of the party, as with the bar fight. Either the rest of the group will back you up or the game will fall apart. And since you aren't having any fun with the way its been, what have you got to loose?

We talked about that tonight and have made a decision to start doing that more. And you are right either it will help bring some of the fun back for both of us or it might mean the end of the group as we know it. And maybe that would not be such a bad thing.

I hope it won't mean that but like you said gaming is not that much fun the way it is right now. Getting together is great and we are all friends but I want to enjoy the game itself again. Friday night was a blast it felt like the good ole days of gaming and made me realize that is the type of game I want to play in.

 

[ssampier]

I see these so often that I rarely play any more:


I hate, hate, HATE that crap.

Nothing annoys me more than some jerk taking me to task for making a "sub-optimal" choice. Yes poindexter, I realize that my dwarf fighter should be using his free Waraxe proficiency instead of a light hammer and a handaxe. Yes, I know I'm giving up hit probability and damage output. Thanks for the input, geek...now go back to your parent's basement and let the adults play in peace.

Me, too. So what I want to play a dwarf that prefers a sword to an axe or likes using dodge, etc. Optimal equals predictable in my book. I guess I never really played the game like a quasi minatures game.*

*nothing wrong with it if you do, but I'd rather play Warhammer if that's what you're after.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Well here goes. You never say anything that is not flattery to anyone in power. Which means you never disagree with them or god forbid come out and and tell them they are wrong.

You never show mercy to an enemy. Even if said enemy is not evil and is nothing more than a hired merc doing his job. Oh no you kill him and take his stuff.

When playing in Kalamar you don't help any of the secret groups like say the Broken Chain free slaves because even though you all think slavery is evil and wrong you don't want to take a chance of the powerful merchants guild the Golden Alliance coming after you.

You always keep all your loot even if it belongs to an ally who you know has a family. You don't even go to them because they might ask for it back.

Don't make any role playing choices if they might be sub optimal or even worse might have a negative impact on the party's power or might come back to haunt you later.

It is perfectly acceptable and not bad manners to try and drag the DM into helping stop a role play choice by saying "would his character do that"

Sorcerers must only take powerful spells and be all about blasting everything or they have no place in the game.

Clerics can never refuse to heal a party member even if that party member has totaaly offended the cleric and his god.

It is bad to ever take the side of an NPC over a PC no matter the circumstances.

These play out in almost every game we play in sometimes with the right DM a lot of it gets thrown by the wayside but it is what has lately been just killing the game for me.

So very many of these unwritten rules would not work in my game that it is not even funny (for the player characters at least )!

In particular: 'Oh you mocked the Cleric's god? Funny, the healing spells don't work for you anymore, he can cast them, they just don't work - nor will any healing spells from any cleric of any god in the pantheon'. The gods grant those spells, they can take them away.

Never showing mercy - after the bad guys start doing the exact same to your allies maybe you will change your minds.

The DM's answer should always be 'it is his character, oh, and you get -2 to your next 5 die rolls for trying to drag me into this.' (I had a player who tried doing this multiple times - it was only after number twenty or so that I imparted the Displeasure of the Gods circumstance modifier.)

Make sure that the PCs pick up a reputation as 'toad eaters' in regards to flattering every noble in sight - most people do not love a suck up.

Keeping an heirloom rather than returning it? Hey! where did all these posters with our faces and the word 'Reward' come from? (And my worlds have the printing press...)

It sounds like an awful lot of those unwritten rules means that your character picks up basketweaving rather than a life of adventure. This is one of the few times that I would penalize XP - if the whole point of your character's lives is easy experience then you aren't going to get it.

The overplanning can be handled by making real time = game time, an awful lot of Spot checks can be made during a 10 minute planning session.

It sounds so very much like Munchkin that I can't help but wonder if the group should be playing that instead.

In many ways it sounds like you need a new group, or at least ditch one or two players from the one that you are in currently, I have been in games where a player could roll over the DM, and try very hard not to be that player - during my most recent experience as a player rather than as a DM the brand new first time running a game DM kept turning to me and asking 'what should I do?'

The answer was always 'what would this NPC do given his personality?' or 'You are the DM, you decide.' With one or two 'You decide, if you want we can talk about it after the game, but go with what you think is right for now - it probably is' sprinkled in to add flavor. Sometimes I hate playing in games run by my former players... Other times it is a lot of fun, more fun when the DM has confidence.

I am glad that you finally got in a game that you enjoyed, that is what the game is all about, otherwise, why play? Keep it up! It may even help the DM learn to handle the job better, since he/she will likely have more fun too. (And that is what DMing is all about, otherwise, why run?)

The Auld Grump

 

[BigTom]

If I was DMing a group and someone kept enforcing there rules, I would so twist them against the party just to make the point that the goal is role playing, not optimization. Especially since some of these rules are really not good ideas in the real world.

Well here goes. You never say anything that is not flattery to anyone in power. Which means you never disagree with them or god forbid come out and and tell them they are wrong..

I would have the party learn something that some noble really doesn't want to hear. After the disaster occurs from him not knowing, an even bigger noble shows up and reams the party out for being too cowardly to do what is right and tell the local noble he is wrong.

You never show mercy to an enemy. Even if said enemy is not evil and is nothing more than a hired merc doing his job. Oh no you kill him and take his stuff..

There are so many legitimate ways to hose this. Have you never heard of ransom? How about the mercenary company dropping everything to come after the group that ruthlessly murdered a few of their members after they honorably surrendered. Who was related to that guy you just killed and who will not not only not owe you a favor but will actually be out to get you for killing their kinfolk?

When playing in Kalamar you don't help any of the secret groups like say the Broken Chain free slaves because even though you all think slavery is evil and wrong you don't want to take a chance of the powerful merchants guild the Golden Alliance coming after you..

Just remember, if you don't help anybody, no one helps you.

You always keep all your loot even if it belongs to an ally who you know has a family. You don't even go to them because they might ask for it back.

Great way to make certain that when the big baddies are hunting you there is no one to shelter you.

Don't make any role playing choices if they might be sub optimal or even worse might have a negative impact on the party's power or might come back to haunt you later.

Life is too uncertain to really be sure what is sub optimal. Going out of your way to be a self centered, greedy bastard is likely not a good way to make allies in the long run.

It is perfectly acceptable and not bad manners to try and drag the DM into helping stop a role play choice by saying "would his character do that"

Unless it is a question of alignment or a particular world rule, the DM should be smart enough to stay out of it.

Sorcerers must only take powerful spells and be all about blasting everything or they have no place in the game.

I would so whip the sorcerers butt with scrying and enchantment. "You have lots of fireballs? Good, aim at your former friends, my mental slave."

Clerics can never refuse to heal a party member even if that party member has totaaly offended the cleric and his god.

Depending on the campaign, I might use this as a reason to deny the cleric spells. I also saw someone suggest that the spells might not work, which is perfectly reasonable too.

It is bad to ever take the side of an NPC over a PC no matter the circumstances.

This one is sticky, but sometimes a PC is just wrong, and sometimes an NPC knows something the party doesn't.

These play out in almost every game we play in sometimes with the right DM a lot of it gets thrown by the wayside but it is what has lately been just killing the game for me.

You need to talk to your DM about this. The DM needs to step up and encourage roll play. More importantly, the DM should not support the bully trying to get everyone else to play the way he wants them to play.

Play your character and enjoy. Let the chips fall where they may.

And please note, I am not encouraging DMs to screw with a party. What I am encouraging is using your ability to shape the world to bring consequences to people who make decisions based on an optimization scheme instead of a character and his needs and desires.

 

[Morte]

...whereas I find the opposite. Sitting in the bar, fellow PCs start a fight, we have to leave town quick, and that's another place we can't go back to.

The next time the five Russian space marines come to our table and try to start a fight with our three non-combatant PCs, could we maybe buy them lots of vodka and pump them for information about all those unscheduled shuttle flights? Wouldn't it make a change from tossing insults then getting whupped?