Foundry VTT Author Chimes in on OGL 1.1

[Velderan]

Unethical? As a result of switching over to 5e from PF2 on Foundry VTT in March of 2022, I bought the following on DDB:

PHB
DMG
MM
Tasha's
Xanathar's
Fizban's
Rime of the Frost Maiden
Candlekeep Mysteries
Shadow of the Dragon Queen; and
2 six month Master subscriptions

All of that spent on DDB over the past nine months. Without Foundry VTT? Not one nickel would have gone to WotC for that.

Respectfully, what you think to be the case, and what actually is the case are two very different things when it comes to Foundry VTT & 5e.

OT, but if you don't mind me asking why did you switch from PF2 to 5e?

 

[Seramus]

OT, but if you don't mind me asking why did you switch from PF2 to 5e?

PF2 has a lot of really great ideas, genuinely interesting and cool innovations. But it still suffers from lots of unnecessary granularity, and feats with tiny tiny bonuses. I really wish I could smash the character creation of PF2 into the main system of 5E and make some kind of glorious/unholy hybrid.

Also, no players. Hard as heck to find players.

 

[Steel_Wind]

OT, but if you don't mind me asking why did you switch from PF2 to 5e?

It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.

[And I apologize in advance if it is]

What happened was last February, Russia invaded Ukraine. Various Western nations announced financial sanctions on Russia and Russians, and in particular, took steps to ensure that it would be really hard to send money to (or get money out of) Russia to and from the West.

About 2-3 weeks after the invasion and as sanctions were being discussed in the media and announced by the UK, Canada, the USA and much of the rest of the West, there was an expansion DLC released for Wrath of the Righteous, the PC Game for PF1. The game is written by Owlcat, a Moscow based developer and published by its parent, which is a corporation based in Cyprus. I don't have anything against the devs in Owlcat, but the purpose of our financial sanctions is not to express our outrage to the people of Russia -- it's to make their lives difficult and so make it more difficult for Putin to govern that nation. And Owlcat's finances are based in Cypus. As a lawyer, I know that is a RED FLAG.

If you know anything about international banking, you know that Cyprus has the most corrupt banking system in the West. If you think you can track money that goes into a Cypriot bank? You can't; not really.

So as the DLC was announced, Paizo shilled for Owlcat -- as I am sure they were contractually obligated to do on both Twitter, via-email and on Paizo's website.

I took exception to this, because in the context at the time -- and at all times since -- sending money in a way that it certain to reach ordinary every day Russians just living their lives in Russia has been something that all of us,. collectively, in the West have been morally and legally against doing. Business as usual with Russia and Russians was not okay.

I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige DELETED MY POST suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo.

I cancelled my subscriptions the next day (I like to wait and not do things when I am angry). I ceased all development of a PF2 version of RotRL I was doing as a for pay gig for Foundry VTT, ended all work I was doing on the Automated Animations and SND FX for PF2 for Foundry VTT (free project, I was ~half done) and suspended two Pathfinder 2 campaigns indefinitely. Another player of mine, who runs Agents of Edgewatch ended his campaign that same day.

This was a difficult decision for me, as many of the top level creative people at Paizo are people I consider to be personal friends. I bear them no ill will -- but this was more than "just business" to me.

And just like that, after being a Paizo superfan and literally owning every product they had ever released, in any format, (including some really obscure ones from 2003) I was out.

If and when the war In Ukraine comes to an end, I will reconsider my position. If, before that should occur, WotC does something really offensive with the OGL 1.1, I will, perhaps, also reconsider.

But for now, that's why I am here, running Rime of the FrostMaiden and Shadow of the Dragon Queen via Foundry VTT, and how it is that WotC recently got a whole lot more of my money.

 

[Stormonu]

This is me 100%. I purchase the books like a responsible adult, then immediately download a PDF so that I can search for text and have it available on my phone/laptop/etc. The physical books just sit there, almost never getting actually used.

I purchase more PDF than physical books these days, and certainly whenever I purchase physical copies I ensure I get the PDF along with it (if available). At home, I'll often pull down the book to read, but on the go and at the FLGS, I leave the books behind - I'm too old to be lugging around a 35 lb. backpack anymore.

That 5E doesn't have PDFs is incredibly annoying; hell, I got PDF copies of the GI Joe & Transformers game but can't get Wotc 5E PDFs? I have purchased Beyond copies of most of the books, but that's only available when online and annoyingly formatted and linked.

 

[Seramus]

It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.

I don't disagree, though I'm saddened that Owlcat got screwed by mere proximity.
That said, I think the topic is extremely political and best avoided here.

 

[payn]

I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige DELETED MY POST suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo.

Paizo does not allow political discussions on their boards. Also, unlike EN World, the mods there often delete postings instead of leaving them. That is confusing at times because you have no idea what was moderated, but thats how they roll.

Yes, it is very convenient for some topics.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Paizo does not allow political discussions on their boards. Also, unlike EN World, the mods there often delete postings instead of leaving them. That is confusing at times because you have no idea what was moderated, but thats how they roll.

Yes, it is very convenient for some topics.

Well, let's not kid ourselves here. The entire Western world was united in its condemnation of the invasion of Ukraine. It certainly was not an issue of much division re: domestic politics in any English language speaking nation on Earth -- nor in any democracy on this planet, either.

And there's nothing "politically divisive" about a pair of dead kids lying in a pool of blood in the streets of Kyiv or Chernihiv. You need to really strain the purpose of Paizo's Message Board rules to reach that conclusion.

Anyway, that's why.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

That 5E doesn't have PDFs is incredibly annoying; hell, I got PDF copies of the GI Joe & Transformers game but can't get Wotc 5E PDFs? I have purchased Beyond copies of most of the books, but that's only available when online and annoyingly formatted and linked.

And subject to content alteration or deletion at any time.

 

[Zardnaar]

It was for "political" reasons - though I don't think this is really "politics". @Umbran will correct me if necessary, I'm sure.

[And I apologize in advance if it is]

What happened was last February, Russia invaded Ukraine. Various Western nations announced financial sanctions on Russia and Russians, and in particular, took steps to ensure that it would be really hard to send money to (or get money out of) Russia to and from the West.

About 2-3 weeks after the invasion and as sanctions were being discussed in the media and announced by the UK, Canada, the USA and much of the rest of the West, there was an expansion DLC released for Wrath of the Righteous, the PC Game for PF1. The game is written by Owlcat, a Moscow based developer and published by its parent, which is a corporation based in Cyprus. I don't have anything against the devs in Owlcat, but the purpose of our financial sanctions is not to express our outrage on the people of Russia -- it's to make their lives difficult and so make it more difficult for Putin to govern that nation. And Owlcat's finances are based in Cypus. As a lawyer, I know that is a RED FLAG.

If you know anything about international banking, you know that Cyprus has the most corrupt banking system in the West. If you think you can track money that goes into a Cypriot bank? You can't; not really.

So as the DLC was announced, Paizo shilled for Owlcat -- as I am sure they were contractually obligated to do on both Twitter, via-email and on Paizo's website.

I took exception to this, because in the context at the time -- and at all times since -- sending money in a way that it certain to reach ordinary every day Russians just living their lives in Russia has been something that all of us,. collectively, in the West have been morally and legally against doing. Business as usual with Russia and Russians was not okay.

I posted on this very topic on Paizo's message board to complain about it. Tonya Woldrige DELETED MY POST suggesting that I was discussing "politics" and that was not okay on Paizo's boards. That was a deliberate and convenient lie, imo.

I cancelled my subscriptions the next day (I like to wait and not do things when I am angry). I ceased all development of a PF2 version of RotRL I was doing as a for pay gig for Foundry VTT, ended all work I was doing on the Automated Animations and SND FX for PF2 for Foundry VTT (free project, I was ~half done) and suspended two Pathfinder 2 campaigns indefinitely. Another player of mine, who runs Agents of Edgewatch ended his campaign that same day.

This was a difficult decision for me, as many of the top level creative people at Paizo are people I consider to be personal friends. I bear them no ill will -- but this was more than "just business" to me.

And just like that, after being a Paizo superfan and literally owing every product they had ever released, in any format, (including some really obscure ones from 2003) I was out.

If and when the war In Ukraine comes to an end, I will reconsider my position. If, before that should occur, WotC does something really offensive with the OGL 1.1, I will, perhaps, also reconsider.

But for now, that's why I am here, running Rime of the FrostMaiden and Shadow of the Dragon Queen via Foundry VTT, and how it is that WotC recently got a whole lot more of my money.

I had developed a taste for Russian beer.

Now I'm generally drinking German or Lithuanian/Ukrainian when I can find it.

 

[payn]

Well, let's not kid ourselves here. The entire Western world was united in its condemnation of the invasion of Ukraine. It certainly was not an issue of much division re: domestic politics in any English language speaking nation on Earth -- nor in any democracy on this planet, either.

And there's nothing "politically divisive" about a pair of dead kids lying in a pool of blood in the streets of Kyiv or Chernihiv. You need to really strain the purpose of Paizo's Message Board rules to reach that conclusion.

Anyway, that's why.

They dont want to host any of that on their boards, doesn't mean they are not sympathetic. When they dropped the no politics rule they dropped it hard. Drove a lot of folks out because discussion got pretty specific to fewer topics.