Fourth Edition just feels... incomplete

[markusdark]

I agree with the OP. For me it is the lack of character customization. Skill list is whittled down from 45 to 17, with many of the old skills all shoved together under a new heading. I can no longer be someone who specializes in locks or traps, I will be equal in all things Thievery.

Mages have an extremely limited choice of spells in comparison to 3.5e and multiclassing is all but non-existant. Except for (IMO) very minor differences in choice of exploits, all character archtypes are the same (i.e. One paladin is just like all the others).

I read the page 7 "History of D&D" and feel that 4e has gone back to it's roots. After 30 years of playing and existing, they've turned it back into a minature wargame. Very little difference in unit (aka class) powers.

 

[billd91]

You've articulated my own thoughts perfectly. Especially with regards to monsters and magic items. I tell myself that there's no way they could have gotten all the good stuff from 3.X, plus new additions, into the first 3 rulebooks. But there's still this feeling that we're not quite there yet.

The magic items don't bother me so much, but I'm definitely feeling that way on monsters. I think the 3.5 MM had a much broader scope... and that's what I want in a monster book. I want my iconic monsters and animals in one source. Bring out the oddballs and variations in a later volume.

 

[Praeden]

They did have a more comprehensive amount of magic items. On the other hand, trimming down the magic item list meant being able to fit it in the PHB, which is fantastic - and the Tome of Treasures (or whatever it is called) is not far down the line, which should fill things in completely.

An instance, as you said, of us needed to get another book to be 'complete' - but the 3rd Edition player with just the PHB was entirely without the magic item rules. He had to buy the DMG just to know what his character could do with his items - which seems an equally profound flaw.

Personally, I liked the fact that players didn't have automatic access to the magic item descriptions. It helped preserve the mystery of said items. Especially in 1/2E, it was always possible to have the DM simply tell you what your items did when you found them.

Given the fact that 4E was reducing the empasis on buying (and even owning) magic items, it seems paticularly strange they should have chosen this edition to move them over to the PHB.

 

[Kraydak]

I agree. There is a slight dearth in PPs (pity the choiceless Warlocks). A massive lack of Epic Destinies. An insufficiency of Epic Feats. A pitiful handful of Wondrous Items. A massive lack of potions. A dearth of generic gear.

I am certainly not the only person who wishes they left the magic items in the DMG for page-count reasons. In a perfect (or digital!) world, the PHB would be the magic-item home, but the world is neither perfect nor digital.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I personally find it much more complete, especially from the perspective of making PCs. This is the first time in D&D, where I can actually feel comfortable building a PC and stating him all out from just the PHB and it feels complete and right.

Before, I usually had to use 4, 5, 6 books just to get the right feel for my character.

Now, all I need to do is pick the right skills and choose my powers to fit it and I am good to go. It just feels like for once I actually have freedom to build a character and I am not restrained by the lack of options, like before.

 

[rkwoodard]

you are not alone

Is it too much to ask for some patience? I just don't see how we can compare an edition of a game that isn't even officially out yet to one that has been around for 7+ years. I know 4e is expensive and it changes a lot so it's scary. You want to know that your investment is going to go towards a good game, but c'mon already! The game is right three books (4 if you count KoTS, 6 if you count the preview books). Compare that to the hundreds of books for 3e isn't fair at all. That's like saying Xbox 360 sucks because in the first few months it was out it only had a handful of games. That's just ridiculous.

Also while I'm at it can I just vent a little about the fact that everybody and their grandmother's grandmother seems to have an early (and illegal) copy of the three books while the rest of us sit here with nothing to tide us over except KoTS? I mean is anyone else getting miffed that the books are being read (and critiqued) and we can't read it for ourselves to see if there's any truth to what people are saying? Is it possible that I'm the only one that doesn't already have the books?

you are not alone. we are out here.

RK

 

[MindWanderer]

NOPE. Re-read. I was comparing the 3.5 CORE RULES vs. the 4e CORE RULES. three books to three books. Even with the 4e books bigger and stuffed to the gills, they still feel they are missing some stuff...

So was I. I'm used to playing 3e with core only (thus the COre COliseum in my sig), and, having played that for years, there are still a ton of things I've never tried. In 4e, I can even list all the viable builds:

- Str-based cleric
- Wis-based cleric
- Fighter (here's the most build options, at least one for almost every weapon group, and two for each weapon group that has both one-handed and two-handed versions. I count 12 altogether)
- Str-based paladin
- Cha-based paladin
- Archery ranger
- TWF ranger
- Infernal-, Fey-, Star-pact warlock
- Int-based warlord
- Cha-based warlord
- Str-based rogue
- Cha-based rogue

Sure, there are tweaks you can make to each of those--different feats, different paragon paths and epic destinies, and of course different races--but ultimately those choices don't affect your play style very much. Two TWF rangers can be different in every respect other than their build, and they're still basically the same. That's 25 distinct builds altogether, half of which are fighter variants based on weapon. In core-only 3e, you could come up with dizens of distinct and viable builds that all differed significantly from one another.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Obviously, WotC wants to sell books, so, I'd say, if the initial game leaves you wanting more, that's just good marketing.

If found core 3.5 quite adequate, for instance, and purchased few suplements. Even core, between feat choice and multiclassing, there were numerous possilble 'builds.' I've played a series of fighters, rogues, fighter-based mulitclasses, and sorcerers over the years, and no two of them were even similar, let alone alike. If I play one or two 4e warlords, and find that a third one wouldn't be any different from the first two, maybe I'd go out and buy Martial Power. I'm sure that's the theory. Or, I could go back to 3.5 and the backlog of character 'builds' I never got around to playing. It'll hinge on how compelling 4e is, and how my group reacts to it.

 

[fnwc]

Personally, I liked the fact that players didn't have automatic access to the magic item descriptions. It helped preserve the mystery of said items. Especially in 1/2E, it was always possible to have the DM simply tell you what your items did when you found them.

Given the fact that 4E was reducing the empasis on buying (and even owning) magic items, it seems paticularly strange they should have chosen this edition to move them over to the PHB.

I think this move has to do more with the fact that a single DMG has to be constantly passed around between players to figure out what some magic items do. Not to mention that a player will have to consult the DMG to create a higher level character with magic items.

The mystery of magic items dissipates fairly quickly after playing D&D for a while. You learn what "Gauntlets of Ogre Power" or a "Cloak of Elvenkind" does after you find one.

The tradeoff between mystery and usability is the correct decision, in my mind.

Besides, if you want a mystery item, you can easily create one. In fact, you can use old 3.5 item books as ideas, as I find the consistent modifier use in the 4E ruleset lends itself well to creating new magic items.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

I also think it feels incomplete...
I guess I miss the fluff. The 3.x book made you feel inside the game, it generated a better atmosphere...

The PHB looks like (-don't kill me!-)a guide to a videogame.