[FR/CotSQ Spoilers] Bane and Vhaerun alliance?

[Iron_Chef]

In my game, we're running City of the Spider Queen, with the "heroes" being a group of extremely bitter and angry LE ites (because they had their regularly scheduled schemes disrupted to go on this quest) and a loosely allied NE up of Vhaerun-worshipping drow from House Jaelre (from a trade agrement the Banites brokered previously). Both hate Kiaransalee and want her cult destroyed as they disrupted their trade deal, and have caused them much grief, both professionally and personally, AND the cult theatensthe "rightful dominion" of their respective gods over (and under) Faerun.

Neither side has much respect for the other, but the trade deal is important to preserve, and rival gods must be thwarted, so they are getting along as best they can with only minor friction and exploitation of each other. Both sides hope to convert the other, though that seems unlikely. They are also trying to gather as much intelligence on the other side's strengths and weaknesses (and their deity, as neither is very familiar with the other's god) as possible.

Is any kind of lasting "alliance" between Bane and Vhaerun possible? I'm talking about the actual gods, here, not their mortal servants discussed above. That was just for background, though I'm interested in hearing opinions on that, too.

There are certainly similarities between the two faiths (both have their clerics pray for spells at night, both want dominion over/under Faerun, both actively seek to convert others and believe in an "inclusive" expansionist policy (meaning "join us or die, or be our slaves... depending on how much trouble you are to capture."

It seems unlikely that Bane or his followers would ever be able to control the UnderDark in any significant way, and alliances with other drow eities are hardly possible or desired... But Vhaerun could be the key--if not to controlling the UnderDark, then to expoiting it to help fund the conquest of the surface world. Vhaerun is certainly (at least to me) the most practical and reasonable of the Drow pantheon, with a considerable presence in the Dales region that could prove useful if some bargain were to be struck that set the Zhentarim and House Jaelre against their hated Dales/Sembian/Cormyte foes, with a mutually agreeable "splitting of the pie" deal so that House Jaelre would get the "glorious" surface kingdom it wants (as well as increased control of the UnderDark), and the Zhentarim would finally have the Dales crushed and made Zhent colonies--and finally--be able to begin forcing trade/political concessions from those money-stuffed pigs in Sembia (prepping them for eventual invasion).

Obviously, neither side can be fully trusted, as both clearly think they should be sole rulers of the world. But a temporary, mutually beneficial alliance seems pretty smart to me.

In regards to the whole Kiaransalee/Orcus debacle, wouldn't it also make sense for Bane/Vhaerun to broker some sort of deal with Orcus (prior to his reclamation of his Abyssal layer), helping him destroy Kiaransalee's stranglehold on his powerbase, in exchange for some (not too greedy, but certainly useful, and nothing he wouldn't already be doing anyway) favors? Such as Orcus giving his "benefactors" the secrets to creating new and loyal forms of undead, such as LE Banite vampires?

I know that Orcus was trying to conquer Vaasa/Damara awhile back (failed miserably, stamping out much of his cult). Would it be so bad to support Orcus' bid to rebuild his cult/reconquer Vaasa/Damara in exchange for favors now? This would certainly mess with the goody-two shoes in that neck of the woods, destabilizing the entire region, which is far enough away from Bane and Vhaerun's target areas as to be perfectly acceptable (in the short term). Or to cement some form of "mutual defense pact" between them in regards to Faerun so that Kiaransalee or another usurper deity could never again threaten Orcus' mastery of undeath? Yeah, yeah, "Orcus hates everyone and everything" in the multiverse and is a wily old CE demon prince, but surely there must be some way to bring him on board and keep him (mostly) adhering to the letter of such a compact?

Or would it make more sense to try to liberate/restore Bane's old "ally" Myrkul, the original NE FR god of death/undeath (who would presumably be grateful and more pliable, as Myrkul never really seemed all that interested in conquest of Faerun for himself)? Or to find the Crown of Horns and consume Myrkul's essence, taking on the portfolio of death and undeath, or at least challenging that wuss Kelemvor or the (even more ripe for the picking) lich-demigod Velsharoon?

Or would it be better to try and compact with Malgrin, Duke of Unlife, the LE "Orcus Jr." of Hell (from Green Ronin's Legions of Hell) and get him on board to fill the shoes of Kiaransalee? Somebody or something needs to fill the gap, right?

I'm just tossing out ideas here. Any help is appreciated! I'm no expert on divine politics, LOL.

 

[Nightfall]

FR divinities are by no means my expertise, but I think it's quite possible that the new and improved Bane WOULD welcome a chance to improve his church in the underdark. Why? Mainly because it offers him a whole new branch of followers that either:
Haven't heard of him or Don't quite understand him in his new format. Working with Vhaerun might prove profitable in the short term but not sure about long term. Would they work together? Possibly as long as Vhaerun got something out of it. Bane promise of a male oriented hierachy might indeed prove useful to a subverted leader. And hey, the occasional visit by Bane's chosen plus the fact the control over Beholders WOULD give Vhaerun's followers a greater advantage. So if you ask me, sure it could work. Give it maybe 100-200 years, but we'll see.

 

[Nightfall]

In regards to the whole Kiaransalee/Orcus debacle, wouldn't it also make sense for Bane/Vhaerun to broker some sort of deal with Orcus (prior to his reclamation of his Abyssal layer), helping him destroy Kiaransalee's stranglehold on his powerbase, in exchange for some (not too greedy, but certainly useful, and nothing he wouldn't already be doing anyway) favors? Such as Orcus giving his "benefactors" the secrets to creating new and loyal forms of undead, such as LE Banite vampires?

Orcus, while not quite the god either of them are, is still at heart, an individualist. He PERSONALLY wants to cow Kiar. Working with Bane and Vhaerun might work out but knowing Orcus as I do, (which is to say somewhat), he's not that interesting in making friends or shaping alliances. His goals are his own, period. If a god wants to work with him, he'd better offer more than just vague promises. That means lots of souls AND temples. Orcus feeds on that stuff. But he also figures he can manage on his own. He's been dead before and came back. This time around I think he'll be cautious, and find a weak hole on Kiar's armor. But I don't see him working with Bane or Vhaerun for any reason. He is, in his own mind, the God of Undeath and that's all that matters.

 

[gfunk]

**MAJOR SPOILERS FOR WAR OF THE SPIDER QUEEN NOVEL #3: CONDEMNATION**





































** YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!**





















In the end of the third novel of the series, Quenthel and friends wind up in the Demonweb Pits looking for signs of Lolth. To do so, they must rely on a priest of Vhaerun, since Lolth's priestesses have lost all of their powers.

They find that the gates to the Demonweb Pits are sealed and that the Spider Queen does not respond to their call.

Then, the priest of Vhaerun gates in his deity! Boldly walking up to the gates, the god begins smashing the hell out of it, hoping to destroy Lolth in a (presumably) weakened state.

Before he can finish the job, Sveletram (sp?), another deity from the dark elf pantheon and loyal to Lolth challenges him. Both go at it and tumble into the Abyss.

Food for thought . . .

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Re: [FR/CotSQ Spoilers] Bane and Vhaerun alliance?

Orcus, while not quite the god either of them are, is still at heart, an individualist. He PERSONALLY wants to cow Kiar. Working with Bane and Vhaerun might work out but knowing Orcus as I do, (which is to say somewhat), he's not that interesting in making friends or shaping alliances. His goals are his own, period. If a god wants to work with him, he'd better offer more than just vague promises. That means lots of souls AND temples. Orcus feeds on that stuff. But he also figures he can manage on his own. He's been dead before and came back. This time around I think he'll be cautious, and find a weak hole on Kiar's armor. But I don't see him working with Bane or Vhaerun for any reason. He is, in his own mind, the God of Undeath and that's all that matters.

Isn't that the hard road? The type of typically short-sighted, stupid Chaotic Evil "Screw You Guys; I'm Going Home!" Cartman approach to (un)life?

Personally, my specific situation notwithstanding, I find Orcus even harder to understand or sympathize with now than back in the 1e days when he was just a statblock and a couple paragraphs, mostly related to how he could kick your ass. He hates all life, okay, but he hates the undead, too? He hates himself and hates everyone and everything. This guy is no fun at all, especially if he ever gets into a position where he can start killing deities again, LOL. Seems like a dude with a major poor attitude like that and chip on his shoulder needs to be bitch-slapped on a cosmic scale.

Orcus is basically a demonic serial killer with no rhyme or reason to him at all. The only thing he wants is everyone and everything else dead (presumably, even himself in the end). Juiblex wants to "consume/absorb" everything, but that's more reasonable, LOL. You know you're in trouble when Juiblex starts making sense, even on a comparative level. There is no point at all to the new version of Orcus that I can fathom. He sounds like a jerk. Other demon princes make some sort of sense and have more easily understandable/sympathetic goals, but Orcus has none, making him a colossal black hole reminiscent of GH's Tharizdun.

What's the point of dealing with him at all? He's making himself largely irrelevant. There are other death/undeath deities and fiends who are far more likable and easy to deal with than Orcus, with far more sympathetic goals. He doesn't even have exclusivity over his portfolio. Who needs him aside from a few half-crazed mortal necromancers when the same power is available to be tapped from (comparitively) friendlier sources elsewhere?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Funny, that. In a campaign I play in, these two deities have forged an alliance to attack Lolth in her weak state (they somehow found out that Lolt is going to be laying eggs - our DM is straying from the canon path here).

Personally, I doubt that these gods would forge any lasting alliances. CE vs LE doesn't make good partners, IMO. The gods wouldn't get well along with one another, and their worshipers wouldn't do better.

Bane might be interested in drow worshipers, but not that much (if he were, Vhaeraun would forge no alliance with him, as he doesn't want to lose any worshipers.) Vhaeraun's hardly interested in lawful humans - especially the sort bane attrackts: tyrants.

While Bane stands for suppression, fear and hate, Vhaeraun stands for liberation, subtlety (and unity of the elven race, though that is an aspect of his teachings that not all of his worshippers embrace).

If Bane wanted allies in the Underdark, he might be better off with evil Dwarven deities, especially the two gods of the Duergar.

Vhaeraun already has Shar and Talona as allies (and Mask, too, but he's vary of him because Mask's to eager to increase his portfolio). He won't ally with any gnome or dwarf deities, but there might be a couple of Faerûnian or Mulhorandi gods that fit him.
If you want something off-beat, you might ally him with some CN elven deities. He does advertise an united elven people, after all, and some members of the Seldarine might be ready to form an alliance with him - if he overcomes his grudges (which are legendary). Likely candidates for such an alliance would be Erevan Ilesere, Fenmarel Mestarine, and maybe even Labelas Enoreth, who might have some insight from the distant future that a reunion of the elven race is necessary for the elves of Faerûn to survive.

 

[Furtive Noise]

Its hard to picture them in a long term alliance; seems to me Bane lacks a sense of humor, style, and subtlety neccesary in dealing with the Drow god.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Its hard to picture them in a long term alliance; seems to me Bane lacks a sense of humor, style, and subtlety neccesary in dealing with the Drow god.

On the contrary, I think Bane has an excellent sense of humor, but just so spiteful and twisted as to be unrecognizable as such to the majority. He did engineer his brilliant return by cannibalizing his own son from within at the height of his son's power, didn't he? He allowed all his enemies to think him utterly dead for years, didn't he, while plotting the greatest comeback in Faerunian deific history? He allowed Manshoon to think he had the upper hand on his Church for centuries while secretly using the archmage to build up one of the greatest, farthest-reaching organizations in history, didn't he? He used, molded and corrupted Scyllua Darkhope to his cause, didn't he?

It seems to me that everything is a grand chess game to Bane, and he must have a Machiavellian sense of humor to appreciate everything that has transpired, and remains to transpire at his direction. However, I don't see him putting a lampshade over his head at a party, if that's what you mean by a sense of humor.

 

[Nightfall]

Re: Re: Re: [FR/CotSQ Spoilers] Bane and Vhaerun alliance?

Isn't that the hard road? The type of typically short-sighted, stupid Chaotic Evil "Screw You Guys; I'm Going Home!" Cartman approach to (un)life?

Personally, my specific situation notwithstanding, I find Orcus even harder to understand or sympathize with now than back in the 1e days when he was just a statblock and a couple paragraphs, mostly related to how he could kick your ass. He hates all life, okay, but he hates the undead, too? He hates himself and hates everyone and everything. This guy is no fun at all, especially if he ever gets into a position where he can start killing deities again, LOL. Seems like a dude with a major poor attitude like that and chip on his shoulder needs to be bitch-slapped on a cosmic scale.

Orcus is basically a demonic serial killer with no rhyme or reason to him at all. The only thing he wants is everyone and everything else dead (presumably, even himself in the end). Juiblex wants to "consume/absorb" everything, but that's more reasonable, LOL. You know you're in trouble when Juiblex starts making sense, even on a comparative level. There is no point at all to the new version of Orcus that I can fathom. He sounds like a jerk. Other demon princes make some sort of sense and have more easily understandable/sympathetic goals, but Orcus has none, making him a colossal black hole reminiscent of GH's Tharizdun.

What's the point of dealing with him at all? He's making himself largely irrelevant. There are other death/undeath deities and fiends who are far more likable and easy to deal with than Orcus, with far more sympathetic goals. He doesn't even have exclusivity over his portfolio. Who needs him aside from a few half-crazed mortal necromancers when the same power is available to be tapped from (comparitively) friendlier sources elsewhere?

Obviously I don't necessarily agree with the writeup in the BoVD but I think it points out one of Orcus's major flaws. Hubris. The guy has more ego about him than even Demogorgon could imagine. But as to why anyone would deal with him? Simple. He's Orcus, a name that strikes fear in most sensible creatures. Known through out realities as a Demon Prince and god of undeath. So while there are some gods that hate life, and occasion goodness, Orcus is all consuming in his goals. And that what attracts people to him. His focus is untained by human or mortal understanding. Even if it takes a 1,000 years, or 100,000 years, he feels he can be triumph. Gods fall and fade, but Orcus still remains. That's his flaw and also his strength. He is always a being unto himself. Period. He will give and take and his followers will bow to it or find out the hard way, Orcus isn't going to go away.

While it may be a hard road, Orcus never did anything easy that I could see. Sure he might cut corners but in matters of dealing with gods, Orcus trusts only one person, himself. So while Bane might have the advantage now, it's not to say it will last. Or for that matter that working with ANY of the Drow Panethon works for Orcus, mainly because he doesn't care that much about the race or any race for that matter. He is all about sucking on life until nothing is left but a unliving corpse. But that to me is Orcus in a nutshell. Hard, unyielding, but always alterable to new ideas when it suits his purpose. Necromancers find him traceble mainly because he won't tell them to do anything that doesn't already give them and by effect, him some measure of power. That's just the way it works.