FR: Players Guide to Faerun is out what do you think?

[jester47]

For example, The Eye of Horus Re is about 10 times better than the Morninglord of Lathander even though they are similar types of deities.

What are the requirements for these PrCs? The same? Is one more strict than the other? A major part of a PrC is the requirements. You cant just look at the results for a feat or class when determining balance, you have to weigh the whole thing.

Aaron.

 

[dreaded_beast]

This is one of the poorest Forgotten Realms books I've seen to date. The book is rife with Prc's and Feats that aren't balanced compared to other Prc's and Feats in the same book...

I respect your opinion. However, I am of the opinion that PrC's and Feats that appear unbalanced may "sometimes" appear worse off on paper than when actually used during play. Why not try it out and see if it works first?

In regards to Orcus, so what is the deal? Deity or Demon Prince?

I remember the Bloodstone Modules that have him as the final BBEG, where he is presented as a deity.

However, from my understanding, the PGtF presents him as a Demon Prince.

I've always liked Orcus and am trying to incorporate him into my FR campaign. My player likes vampires, so I am going to have him as a BBEG (not to be fought, but just behind the scenes) since his portfolio is undead.

Nightfall: could it be that you like Orcus because he is the "mascot" for Necromancer Games (or is it Sword and Sorcerery)?

 

[Creeperman]

Speaking of Justicar of Tyr, would someone with the book mind giving a rundown of it? I'm still waiting for my copy of the book, and the suspense is killing me.

 

[Alzrius]

In regards to Orcus, so what is the deal? Deity or Demon Prince?

Par for the course, the book seems to want to have it's cake and eat it to on this issue.

Page 143, under "Features of the Abyss" states:

The Abyss has no divine realms, and no true deities make their homes there. However, a great many demon princes - probably as many as there are layers of the Abyss - vie for power and territory on this plane. Prominent demon princes include Demogorgon, Eltab, Yeenoghu, Orcus, Graz'zt, Baphomet, and Kostchtchie, most of whom are described in the Book of Vile Darkness

However, page 189 has a table (Table A-10) describing the "Vile and Exalted Deities" of Faerun...that is, the deities who can grant exalted domains (from the Book of Exalted Deeds) and vile domains (from the Book of Vile Darkness). The thing to note is that several archfiends (and celestial paragons) are listed among the "deities" of the table with no discrepancies noted. While Orcus is not among them (he has no vile domains, though he has other domains), this clearly points out that several demon lords can grant spells...something they shouldn't be able to do, unless they were gods.

I remember the Bloodstone Modules that have him as the final BBEG, where he is presented as a deity.

From what I've heard about module H3 Mines of Bloodstone, it does have an appearance by an "avatar of Orcus" yes. However, Orcus as displayed on pages 76-77 of H4 Throne of Bloodstone is decidedly not a god there. He does have a full stat listing which is different from his Monster Manual depiction, which is stated as being his stats within his actual fortress - the Monster Manual stats are used if he's elsewhere on his plane or another plane (as modified by Manual of the Planes). Nothing about his description notes him as a deity (though, to be fair, you fight Tiamat later in the adventure, and she has no notations that depict her as a deity either, save that Bahamut tells you that even if you kill her, she'll come back - same for destroying the Wand of Orcus).

However, from my understanding, the PGtF presents him as a Demon Prince.

Like I said, it waffles on that issue.

 

[kuje31]

Also up until the Players Guide, Orcus was listed as a lesser deity, on the last page of Faiths & Pantheons as well as on page 5 of that book. He also has a cleric in the Unapproachable East sourcebook, but now the current 3/3.5 book changes him back to just a demon prince. Wish they would make up thier mind!

 

[Swack-Iron]

Now I'm going to have a bunch of undead hunters wanting to be Eyes of Horus Re since this Prc is about as insanely overpowered as they come. The class gets to use Greater Turning a number of times per day equal to 3 plus their charisma modifier in addition to their regular turning attempts. That is just stupid, imbalanced design.

So set your campaign in Luskan, a place about as far away from the stomping grounds of Eyes of Horus Re as possible. And don't throw many undead against them. Problem solved.

 

[Swack-Iron]

I respect your opinion. However, I am of the opinion that PrC's and Feats that appear unbalanced may "sometimes" appear worse off on paper than when actually used during play. Why not try it out and see if it works first?

And here, finally, is the real crux of the issue. How many of you people who are complaining about balance issues have actually played a 3.0 game set in the Forgotten Realms?

I've been running a game set in the Realms since about a month after the FRCS went on sale. In my experience, not one of the many players who have created characters in my game have taken any of the regional feats. Not a single one. Why? Because in their 3.0 incarnations they never seemed as useful as the general feats. Although perhaps balanced compared to the PHB feats, none of my players has ever felt that a single regional feat would have actual utility.

As a DM I'm happy that the 3.5 regional feats got a bump in power. It makes them more attractive, which means that my players are more likely to use them when designing new characters. My kudos go to the designers for actually paying attention to how the stuff they design was getting used.

 

[rounser]

Eltab

Who?

 

[Felon]

And here, finally, is the real crux of the issue. How many of you people who are complaining about balance issues have actually played a 3.0 game set in the Forgotten Realms?

**raises hand**

As a DM I'm happy that the 3.5 regional feats got a bump in power. It makes them more attractive, which means that my players are more likely to use them when designing new characters. My kudos go to the designers for actually paying attention to how the stuff they design was getting used.

I don't recall anyone taking any regional feats, and I don't recall any real reason to be disappointed about that. I sure don't think the game's enhanced by making them unbalanced to the point that they become just too darn tempting to resist.

 

[Celtavian]

What are the requirements for these PrCs? The same? Is one more strict than the other? A major part of a PrC is the requirements. You cant just look at the results for a feat or class when determining balance, you have to weigh the whole thing.

Aaron.

Eye of Horus Re Requirements
Al: Lawful Good
Region: Mulhorand
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 9 ranks, Spot 4 ranks.
Feats: Alertness, Extra Turning
Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd level divine spells.
Domain: Sun

Morninglord Requirements
Alignment: Any Good
Skills: Craft (any) 4 ranks, Diplomacy 7 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks, Perform (any) 2 ranks.
Feat: Improved Turning
Spells: Able to cast 3rd level divine spells.
Patron Deity: Lathander


The Eye of Horus Re is so much better than the Morninglord of Lathander that the two classes are not comparable fighting undead or any other creatures for that matter. Just to give you a slight example of the difference, at 10th level the Morninglord gains the equivalent of 60 foot darkvision while the Eye of Horus Re gains always active True Seeing. The Eye of Horus Re receives 60 foot Darkvision at 2nd level. When you get this book, just look over the two classes. They are not comparable.


The Regional feats are actually not that bad. You can now only have one regional feat ever. You have to buy it at first level. They may be more powerful, but they are very limited.