[FRealms] Change in tone from 1E to 2E?

[Korgoth]

I was looking over my old Forgotten Realms stuff lately. Is it my imagination, or was there a change in tone from 1E to 2E? I'm having trouble putting my finger on it... my impression is that 1E FRealms was a little more mysterious and low-key. More emphasis on weird, one-of-kind books and wheels turning subtly in the background. Whereas 2E seems more "in your face" with gods walking the earth, epic battles, Mongol hordes, NPCs that seem more like superheroes than strange background figures.

Also, perhaps only as an aside, there seemed to be a more... "lurid" mentality to the 2E products. Every product seems to go on about "festhalls", orgies, affairs, etc. Elminister the porn star instead of Elminister the sage, etc.

I may not be seeing the whole picture on this one. I never played in 1E FRealms (played plenty of 1E, of course), though I did run some games in 2E FRealms.

 

[Grimstaff]

I was looking over my old Forgotten Realms stuff lately. Is it my imagination, or was there a change in tone from 1E to 2E? I'm having trouble putting my finger on it...

Not your imagination at all, just take a look at the author(s). 1E stuff was by Ed Greenwood, fan of Conan, Elric, etc. 2E stuff was done by TSR's hired guns. First thing they did was go in and butcher the setting (albeit with Greenwood's cooperation, but hey, he was still working as a librarian at the time, iirc, and the paycheck was not to be turned down) with a little storyline known as the "Time of Troubles" (boy was it ever ) , setting the stage for the release of 2E with FR as the new flagship setting, in the hopes of finally laying the troublesome Gygax legacy of Grayhawk to rest. The setting also became (not unlike Dragonlance) a vehicle for some pretty bad, hack fiction, a lot of which was unfortunately offically adopted as "canon" for the RPG products.

All silly edition problems aside, most of the 1E stuff was material Greenwood wrote and perfected and actually played over several years, so there is a lot more depth and congruity, whereas alot of the 2E stuff was written with both a deadline and a bottom line to consider. For some quick comparisons, look at "Undermountain"(1e) and "Undermountain2" (2e), or look at "Waterdeep and the North"(1e) and "City System"(2E). The change from dense, playtested, "dark" fantasy to fluffy, hit or miss, "happy" fantasy should be readily apparent. Not that nothing good was done under the auspices of 2E, but the change in tone was obvious and somewhat disappointing, imho.

 

[bolen]

Not your imagination at all, just take a look at the author(s). 1E stuff was by Ed Greenwood, fan of Conan, Elric, etc. 2E stuff was done by TSR's hired guns. First thing they did was go in and butcher the setting (albeit with Greenwood's cooperation, but hey, he was still working as a librarian at the time, iirc, and the paycheck was not to be turned down) with a little storyline known as the "Time of Troubles" (boy was it ever ) , setting the stage for the release of 2E with FR as the new flagship setting, in the hopes of finally laying the troublesome Gygax legacy of Grayhawk to rest. The setting also became (not unlike Dragonlance) a vehicle for some pretty bad, hack fiction, a lot of which was unfortunately offically adopted as "canon" for the RPG products.

All silly edition problems aside, most of the 1E stuff was material Greenwood wrote and perfected and actually played over several years, so there is a lot more depth and congruity, whereas alot of the 2E stuff was written with both a deadline and a bottom line to consider. For some quick comparisons, look at "Undermountain"(1e) and "Undermountain2" (2e), or look at "Waterdeep and the North"(1e) and "City System"(2E). The change from dense, playtested, "dark" fantasy to fluffy, hit or miss, "happy" fantasy should be readily apparent. Not that nothing good was done under the auspices of 2E, but the change in tone was obvious and somewhat disappointing, imho.

Does third edition continue the 2E trend toward "happy" fantasy? I have never gamed in FR. (mostly because I have no idea what is forgotten about it) It seems to be beter document then many cities in real life And it always seemed to me to be a poor man's middle earth (like many fantasy settings)

 

[Grimstaff]

Does third edition continue the 2E trend toward "happy" fantasy? I have never gamed in FR. (mostly because I have no idea what is forgotten about it) It seems to be beter document then many cities in real life And it always seemed to me to be a poor man's middle earth (like many fantasy settings)

3E FR stuff seems to be a mixed bag, at least imo. I think the basic 3.0 campaign setting is one of the best books WotC has done to date for d20, a real surprise with no fluff, wasted space, or filler, and the maps are beautiful, definitely a worthy update to the setting. Really a fantastic book. Just compare to the basic Eberron book. Read a few entries from each, and you'll see what I mean. Put the maps side by side (no don't really, you'll just mad you spent so much money on Eberron ). BTW, I'm comparing books not settings, so put your flamethrowers away, Eberron groupies! You know who you are...

The sourcebooks to come after have been kind of hit or miss, never outright awful, but seldom groundbreaking either. I have to say my favorite is Lost Empires of Faerun, a great resource for DMs to mine for adventure ideas for any campaign setting, and certainly a must for anyone DMing FR.

Edit: I should add that in all the editions and various versions, no version of Waterdeep has the utility, atmosphere, and panache of the original 1E Waterdeep book, I still used it in my last FR (3.5) camaign. Pick it up off Ebay or download the .pdf from Paizo if you're running FR, you'll be glad you did.

 

[Glyfair]

3E FR stuff seems to be a mixed bag, at least imo. I think the basic 3.0 campaign setting is one of the best books WotC has done to date for d20, a real surprise with no fluff, wasted space, or filler, and the maps are beautiful, definitely a worthy update to the setting. Really a fantastic book.

Are you talking about the campaign setting or Magic of Faerun? I thought the campaign setting was OK. MoF, however, fits your description perfectly. I consider it the best 3.0 book WotC put out.

 

[bolen]

Why is it called the forgotten Realms, someone once told me that there were portals which lead there and these were "forgotten". Is that right? (I am not criticizing your setting, I just am very naive about FR)

 

[Grimstaff]

Why is it called the forgotten Realms, someone once told me that there were portals which lead there and these were "forgotten". Is that right? (I am not criticizing your setting, I just am very naive about FR)

"Forgotten Realms" refers to the countless fallen empires and hazard-filled ruins that dot Faerun. Waterdeep, for example, is built atop a lost dwarven city near a forest that was once part of an elven kingdom, which in turn was driven out by a now vanished human kingdom that was destroyed in civil wars brought on by a now fallen empire run by mighty wizards who... well, you get the idea.

 

[Grimstaff]

Are you talking about the campaign setting or Magic of Faerun? I thought the campaign setting was OK. MoF, however, fits your description perfectly. I consider it the best 3.0 book WotC put out.

I was referring the basic setting book, but Magic was a decent book too. That and the underrated Monsters of Faerun made for what seemed to be an excellent new line of books, but then several rehash type books followed, lowering the bar yet again...

 

[marune]

"Forgotten Realms" refers to the countless fallen empires and hazard-filled ruins that dot Faerun. Waterdeep, for example, is built atop a lost dwarven city near a forest that was once part of an elven kingdom, which in turn was driven out by a now vanished human kingdom that was destroyed in civil wars brought on by a now fallen empire run by mighty wizards who... well, you get the idea.

In fact, the "Realms" (the term the people there use) are forgotten to us because the ties to "our world" have nearly all vanished -> Forgotten Realms.

 

[Echohawk]

For some quick comparisons, look at "Undermountain"(1e) and "Undermountain2" (2e), or look at "Waterdeep and the North"(1e) and "City System"(2E).

Except that both Waterdeep and the North (Oct 1987) and City System (Sep 1988) were 1st Edition products, and both Ruins of Undermountain (Feb 1991) and Ruins of Undermountain II (Feb 1994) were 2nd Edition products .