Free wish for a feat?

[the Jester]

I'm a little unclear on exactly what this feat does- does it give you a wish once, or does it let you avoid paying the xp cost for casting wish once?

I really like Reality Shaper- I have already copied it into my campaign document.

 

[Jack Simth]

"MAKE AN ANNUAL WISH" [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Ability to cast wish.
Benefit: Once per year, you may cast wish without expending experience.

Simple enough to make it hurt just a hair, even with a Psion in the party swapping it out; change the Benefit line to read "Starting one year after taking this feat, once per year, you may cast wish that costs 5,000 xp less than normal."

Sure, you can take the feat, hold it for a year, then cast Wish for free, and have the Psion swap it out for Greater Spell Penetration.... but then, later, when you need to Wish again, you can't do it without the XP cost for a year, even after swapping it back in. Also, subtracted 5,000 xp from the cost, rather than getting rid of it entire, for the little magic item aspect of Wish. With the previous version, well, Wish says you can get any magic item at a significantly increased XP cost. If you simply dump the XP cost, then the Wisher with the originial version of the feat can get a +50 sword (epic, market price 25,000,000 gp) at the cost of a feat. And then do it again in a year.

Now, a Wizard with five rings of Greater Spell Storing could concieveably (with the modified) save up (for five years....) Wishes with this, and get the benefits of any of the +5 Tomes for just the cost of five years time and the (reuseable) investment in five rings of Greater Spell Storing, but that's... um.... a long time to not be adventurin.

Also.... probably a good idea to make the "down time" on that explicitly set by the DM; it's highly campaign-dependant on how long between adventures, which seriously impacts the feat's usefullness.

 

[Land Outcast]

Unburdensome Wishes
Prerequisite: Able to cast wishor miracle.
Benefit: Whenever you gain a level, you gain 500 bonus experience points per (effective) character level, which you can only use to cast spells with an XP component, and for no other purpose. You do not gain levels any sooner than you would otherwise. These bonuses overlap and do not stack; therefore, whenever you gain a level, your new bonus replaces whatever unspent bonus XP you have.

I don't quite know what to think about this feat but...
A good idea would be for you to "gain 500 bonus "wish points" per (effective) character level" These can be expended instead of XP when casting a wish, miracle, or limited wish (on a 1:1 ratio).

I know that granting "XP" which doesn't allow you to advance in levels would be confusing.

On another note:
A feat which maybe wouldn't be over nor underpowered would be one which you can take from 14 lvl onwards, and allows you to get 1 "wish point" per character level whenever you gain a level, you can expend 10 "wish points" to use Wish as a spell-like ability (without paying the XP component).

[U]ECL        WP[/U]
14         014
15         029
16         045
17         062
18         080
19         099
20         109

 

[Lorehead]

I tend to agree. My feat is an epic feat with hard prerequisites that removes the XP cost for limited wish and reduces it for wish. My theory is that by the level you get all of this, you're powerful enough that it isn't unbalancing. What do you think? Also, what do you think of comrade raoul's feat?

I approached the problem the same way you did. My spell was also an epic spell. It worked better than miracle at duplicating spells, as a higher-level spell should. Mine, however, primarily benefited clerics, whereas yours primarily benefits sorcerers, the weaker class.

The ability to use limited wish to cast spontaneously spells that a sorcerer doesn't know is still mighty handy, I think. It effectively adds all 6th-level sor/wiz spells, and all other 5th-level spells, to a sorcerer's list of spells known at no XP cost. At 21st level, it would take 70 limited wishes to drop a spellcaster one full level behind the rest of the party. That's enough of a cost to make a sorcerer save that spell for rare occasions, but not to stop him from casting it when needed.

Reality Shaper first turns him into a great utility caster, which is a major change. I also don't think lower-level spells, in combination with metamagic, are so weak as to be negligible. For instance, empowered chain lightning averages 105 points of damage, enough that he can afford to forego meteor swarm. With access to non-core spells, the advantage of being able to spontaneously target a foe's weakness makes up for the benefit of possibly denying it a save. If the DM allows duplicating a metamagic version of a spell, an empowered, split ray enervation bestows 7.5 negative levels, compared to 5 for energy drain.

If I played a sorcerer with empower spell, I think that I would rather have free limited wishes than either Improved Metamagic or Improved Spell Capacity. That much versatility would be far more useful to me than the ability to cast my existing spells more times per day.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Reality Shaper first turns him into a great utility caster, which is a major change. I also don't think lower-level spells, in combination with metamagic, are so weak as to be negligible. For instance, empowered chain lightning averages 105 points of damage, enough that he can afford to forego meteor swarm. With access to non-core spells, the advantage of being able to spontaneously target a foe's weakness makes up for the benefit of possibly denying it a save. If the DM allows duplicating a metamagic version of a spell, an empowered, split ray enervation bestows 7.5 negative levels, compared to 5 for energy drain.

I'm not sure what metamagic you're doing. Split Ray can't affect enervation, and two metamagic feats are applied separately, not together. But regardless of what you're doing, a sorcerer who takes enervation can do the same with a slot one level lower, so that's not really a concern to me.

If I played a sorcerer with empower spell, I think that I would rather have free limited wishes than either Improved Metamagic or Improved Spell Capacity. That much versatility would be far more useful to me than the ability to cast my existing spells more times per day.

Note, though, that Reality Shaper takes 30 ranks in two skills and a prerequisite feat. This will make it hard for sorcerers to qualify (though they certainly can, it just takes dedication).

I'm not sure that it's balanced properly, but so far I haven't felt the need to change it based on my experience. I will note that thus far only wizards have taken the feat IMC, and it might be worse with sorcerers.

 

[Piratecat]

I have often considered a house rule that Wish simply doesn't require XP if it's duplicating an existing spell (unless the spell you're duplicating costs XP; you'd have to pay that as normal). I can't think of any downside to that rule other than that Wish would actually get cast.

I treat wish like miracle in my game, and don't charge an xp cost for spoofing spells. I do charge an xp cost for extraordinary uses. This works really, really well, and is fun.

Don't allow it with reality revision, the 9th lvl psionic wish equivalent, though. Thanks to power points, the psion in my game can manifest like 47 9th lvl powers a day at 20th lvl. For reality revision I reduced the xp cost for power spoofing to 500 xp, which should be okay.

 

[Lorehead]

I'm not sure what metamagic you're doing. Split Ray can't affect enervation, and two metamagic feats are applied separately, not together. But regardless of what you're doing, a sorcerer who takes enervation can do the same with a slot one level lower, so that's not really a concern to me.

If I understand you properly, what you're saying is incorrect:

• Enervation produces a ray, and Split Ray can affect it (Complete Arcane 83).
• The sentence in the 3.0 PH which said that you apply metamagic feats separately was removed in 3.5 (PH 88), and the FAQ confirms that you now get the compounded effect (D&D v3.5 FAQ 5/24/06 23).
• Your point that a sorcerer could accomplish the same thing by learning the spell and spending two feats is not well-taken. Suppose you gave the sorcerer a feat that let him spontaneously cast any spell on the sor/wiz list, using a higher-level slot. I do not think that such a feat would be balanced, even though any specific use of this trick is something he could do with a lower-level slot by other means.
• Additionally, this gives the sorcerer spontaneous access to spells not on his class list at all, such as healing spells. The argument that he could cast these one level lower does not hold here.
• This is one example, not of how powerful any one application of this feat is, but of how dramatically free limited wishes expand a sorcerer's spell list. An extremely limited feat and spell selection is supposed to balance the sorcerer against the wizard.
• You speculated that, at epic levels, the extra power boost wouldn't matter. I disagree: metamagic versions of 6th-level spells stay relevant.

Note, though, that Reality Shaper takes 30 ranks in two skills and a prerequisite feat. This will make it hard for sorcerers to qualify (though they certainly can, it just takes dedication).

Iron Will is definitely sub-optimal for a spellcaster, which helps. Knowlege (arcana) is a class skill for sorcerers. Knowledge (magic) does not appear to come from the core rules; if you have no house rules for it, it isn't a class skill for sorcerers at all, which puts this feat almost out of reach. The Cha prerequisite is almost tailor-made for sorcerers.

I'm not sure that it's balanced properly, but so far I haven't felt the need to change it based on my experience. I will note that thus far only wizards have taken the feat IMC, and it might be worse with sorcerers.

I'd be surprised if this caused any problems with wizards. If a sorcerer does want to take it, I'd keep an eye out for trouble. It's possible that I'm concerned over nothing, though.

 

[Lorehead]

I treat wish like miracle in my game, and don't charge an xp cost for spoofing spells. I do charge an xp cost for extraordinary uses. This works really, really well, and is fun.

Don't allow it with reality revision, the 9th lvl psionic wish equivalent, though. Thanks to power points, the psion in my game can manifest like 47 9th lvl powers a day at 20th lvl. For reality revision I reduced the xp cost for power spoofing to 500 xp, which should be okay.

I'll take your word that it works. Have any sorcerers taken full advantage of this house rule? If so, what happened?

 

[Lorehead]

And one additional issue that slipped my mind: magic item creation. Reducing or eliminating XP costs makes inherent bonuses to ability scores vastly cheaper. Since wizards get Scribe Scroll for free, I'd be surprised if, at the first opportunity, they didn't make one or two scrolls of wish, prepare the spell a few times, and raise their Int five points at half the original cost of one wish.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I must have been working off an older version of Split Ray, then. I don't have CA.

You speculated that, at epic levels, the extra power boost wouldn't matter. I disagree: metamagic versions of 6th-level spells stay relevant.

As it's an Epic feat, there's no point in speculating on how strong it might be as a subepic feat. Generally, though, I don't agree that considering the most powerful 5th-6th levels spells is useful here; the 'best' spells for sorcerers will already be taken. The advantage is that spells which would otherwise be not quite good enought to take can be cast, albeit in a higher-level slot.

Regardless the debate is academic for me, since I have no experience with sorcerers taking this feat. (See below for perhaps partial reasons.)

Iron Will is definitely sub-optimal for a spellcaster, which helps. Knowlege (arcana) is a class skill for sorcerers. Knowledge (magic) does not appear to come from the core rules; if you have no house rules for it, it isn't a class skill for sorcerers at all, which puts this feat almost out of reach. The Cha prerequisite is almost tailor-made for sorcerers.

As a house rule, I split Knowledge (arcana) into Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (magic). Sorcerers can have one (not both) as a class skill. This makes the feat hard to get.

Iron Will is part of the balance of the feat (as a subpar choice for casters), as well as a strong component of its flavor.

In all honesty, I chose the Cha prerequisite because it fit the feat, not even considering that sorcerers would make it easily. It was a bit harder for the 2 wizards who took it to qualify, but they managed.

I'd be surprised if this caused any problems with wizards. If a sorcerer does want to take it, I'd keep an eye out for trouble. It's possible that I'm concerned over nothing, though.

Your concerns may well be valid, and I'm glad to have the chance to talk this over before it comes up in a campaign. You've certainly given me some things to think about.

Presuming I'm attached to the idea of the feat, but that it turns out too powerful for sorcerers (not wizards), at least at low-epic levels, what would you suggest to balance it out? Harder prerequisites, another feat in the chain (say, one [Epic] feat halving XP cost and then this one requiring the first), lowered benefits, higher level requirement (Knowledge 30 ranks, so it takes until lvl 27), what?

the Jester: if a sorcerer picks this feat up in your game, I'd love to hear about it.