Freeze soul is now disjoin soul. Heavy update.

[index]

Okay, I'm not sure I follow this. I'm going to try a re-write (no offense intended). Let me know if I've got the meaning of your spell.

Freeze Soul
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: Standard action
Range: Close (25ft. + 5ft. / 2 levels)
Effect: One creature
Duration: 1 rd/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell resistance: Yes

During the casting of this spell, you throw a shroud of obsidian dust over your target (which does not require a ranged touch attack, this is simply part of the material and somatic components of the spell).

This is already covered by the Components and Range section above. If you're worried about the flavor text obscuring the rules (which I can easily see), perhaps a more succinct way to put it would be:

This spell throws a shroud of obsidian dust over your target and disjoins the soul. For all intents and purposes, the body temporarily ceases to exist, while the soul is trapped on a random, hostile part of the Plane of Shadow.

The spell causes the target's body to disappear (though it is not disintegrated, has not been teleported, and isn't invisible as per that spell),

Yeah, I have a problem with that part of the spell too. Not so much for this spell, but in how it interacts with other spells and effects.

and forces the target's soul into a Shadow fold where his body's position on the material plane had connected to the plane of Shadow's coterminous point. Losing contact with a body causes the target pain, resulting in 1d4 hit points lost per round until the target dies or is saved.

Short of a plane shift spell (or wish or miracle), the target cannot be rescued from his plight; although it's possible a wandering denizen of the plane of Shadow might take notice (but this isn't necessarily a good thing).

I personally like the possibility of a Shadow Plane rescue, but I think Ferret wants to avoid such.

The plane shift spell has a range of touch, so saving someone with this spell will require that the caster of the plane shift spell has the ability to travel to the place where the target is, and then use the spell.

Plus they have to be able to FIND the victim. In Ferret's version, that's going to be non-trivial.

During the time this spell is in effect, what happens to the target's body? Is it just gone? If someone rescues the person's soul from the Shadow plane, is that soul now without a body?

See, Ferret, this is what I mean about questions raised by using new effects instead of pre-existing game terms such as 'paralyzed and incorporeal' or your original 'cowering and incorporeal'. (Yes, I understand 'paralyzed and incorporeal' doesn't cover all of what you want, but 'paralyzed and incorporeal, with the soul disjoined and flung into a random part of the Plane of Shadow' seems close. Or since Shadow effects are so strange, perhaps you can get away with 'body paralyzed and flung into a random part of the Shadow Plane, with the soul disjoined and left behind, cowering and incorporeal'? That doesn't give the immunity to healing and other harm that you seem to want)

The more we look at your spell, Ferret, the more I'm understanding why Maze is such a weird spell. Maze simplifies many of these questions by explicitly banishing the victim to an extradimensional prison, but I don't think Ferret wants to use extradimensional spaces.

Or, perhaps, did I just not get the meaning of your spell?

Dave

PS This sounds like a pretty cool spell concept, so I'm eager to see it worked out so I can then pilfer it from ya.

Yes, it's a cool spell concept. I would never have bothered commenting if it wasn't.

--index

 

[index]

For the duration of the spell, they have no physical body, on the plane of shadows or the plane they reside on, and they are treated as paralysed. Due to the lack of physical body they cannot be harmed, healed, or targeted by spells except for a Plane Shift heightened to 8th level, this shifts them back to their previous plane of existence. They cannot be rescued by any spell as they are sent to an unreachable part of the plane of shadows.

So is this a temporary banishing spell? Whatever remains of the victim is banished to the plane of shadow, and if they survive, the banishment ends and they get their body back?

Why not describe it as a banishment, then?

Targeted only by Plane Shift... As someone else mentioned, that's a touch spell.

(And why Heightened to 8th level? Do you know how RARE the use of Heighten is? The only time I've ever used it was when I was raising the required slot for the spell anyway by using other meta-magic.)

If part of the victim is sent to the Plane of Shadow, why can't their depature point be targetted with a Mordenkainen's Disjuction or Greater Dispel Magic? If all of the (remains of the) victim is sent to the Plane of Shadow, why should ANY spell be able to target them?

BTW, I don't think there's any official Maze ruling, because everyone just assumes the victim will soon make their INT roll, but I've always run it as leaving behind a tiny magical nexus at the victim's departure point which can be dispelled to collapse the extradimensional prison and bring the victim back.

IMO, any spell that banishes a native (banishing a planar is easier) -- even temporarily -- without leaving behind some sort of exploitable connection is equal to a Gate spell, reversed.

If there's no connection to the departure point, how does a Maze spell put the victim back in the correct place once they escape?

--index

 

[Ferret]

Points taken on how you write. In all honestly it doesn't make it any harder to read, but I just don't like it. Don't know why. Thanks for taking exception to my posts .

Instead of answering questions (directly and ignoring what I would like the spell to do), I'm going to just say what I wanted the spell to do.

It is intended to incapacitatethe target, by putting part of them on the plane of shadows. Not specificly the soul, or the body but their essence. This would leave them without a corporeal body and unable to do anything but they should still be able to be seen. Where they are isn't black and white, their lost almost. Because of where they are they would take damage, and also not existing would also hurt.

'This spell throws a shroud of obsidian dust over your target and disjoins the soul. For all intents and purposes, the body temporarily ceases to exist, while the soul is trapped on a random, hostile part of the Plane of Shadow.'

This works on the same principle but is a much cleaner way of putting it.

Onto your points (I've not quoted what you said in an attept to stop this thread from getting massive):

Duration short: If it is too powerful for an 8th level spell then I'd be happier to move it too a 9th level spot, then shorten the duration.

No defense against damage: I'm not trying to stop them resisting damage, just that it isn't the regular physical damage. It has no descriptor or type. If I had to label it I'd say it was darkness damage but that doesn't exist. Thinking about it would one point of constitution damage every 5 rounds (Which would leave it at -4 con at the end of the 20 rounds) be good?

Incorporeal or not?: Being incorporeal is like what I wanted, but if i say incorporeal then like you (might have) thought with the Incorporeal subtype that they gain the benefits. This shouldn't be too bmuch of a problem if I clearly say that they cannot act whilst they are disjoined.

ALL POWERFULL!!: This isn't meant to be all powerful but I didn't want a lowly 6th level spell dispell the spell. MD would work, I hadn't thought of it. I would think that those spells would just sever the link between the part that is on the prime M plane and the Plane of shadows meaning that the target is trapped on the plane of shadows, but would no longer suffer damage, be corporeal on the plane of shadows and be able to do stuff. Wish would undo the spell.

Spell cost: The ones with really high (thousands) costs are restricted, especially if it's cast alot, 300 gp isn't much but if it's used a lot (which could get tiring) it'll make a dent.

Banishing?: No, although a "I'll send you to hell" spell Sounds good.

Heightened and stuff: Ignore that, when I rewite it I'll say something like it "can only be dispell by applicable spell over 8th level"

The rest (assuming I responded chronologicaly, and you read this in the right order ): It should have some tie to the Prime M plane, I always pictured an insubstantial image of the target, a planar residue. Uhm.. like the way the shadow plane overlaps so you can see a faint image of the target.

Thats all isn't it?

 

[Ferret]

Disjoin soul
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: Standard action
Range: Close (25ft. + 5ft. / 2 levels)
Effect: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level.
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell resistance: Yes

This spell disjoins the soul. For all intents and purposes, the body temporarily ceases to exist, while the soul is trapped on a random, hostile part of the Plane of Shadow. With the body non-existent, and the plane of shadow taking its toll on they character they begin to loose some of their substanence. All that can be seen of the creature is planar residue which usually take the shape of the character.

For the duration of the spell, they have no physical body, on the plane of shadows or the plane they reside on, and they are unable to act. Due to the lack of physical body they cannot be harmed, healed or effected in any other bodily sense. They do however take one point of constitution damage and one more for every five rounds that they spend in the plane of shadows.

A Dispel cast on the image of the creature simply severs the link between the Prime material plane and the plane of shadows, the soul is still trapped and the character must make another will save to retain the body (other wise it disappears) which appears on the Prime material plane; the character continues to take constitution damage. Once reunited the soul and body can be fused with a Lesser Wish spell. A mordenkainen's disjunction does the same but reunites and fuses the soul and body, but they are still stuck on the plane of shadows, although because the soul and body are rejoined the character ceases to take the damage to constitution. A wish spell returns the creature to the prime material plane, rejoins the body and soul but does not reverse the damage done to the character.

Creatures without souls are not effected.

Material Component: Obsidian dust blown towards target worth at least 700gp


There you go!

 

[Cheiromancer]

Ferret, you are introducing a whole different status for the body, and a weird status for the murkily defined soul. "For all practical purposes it doesn't exist"- but apparently the character still retains the body, and the body can still disappear under the right circumstances. And the body is apparently still taking constitution damage, even though it doesn't exist. What if the hit points drop below zero? Does it start to die, this body that "for all practical purposes" doesn't exist? Nothing is more practical than damage, death and dying!

Apparently the soul and body can be reunited. How? A dispel magic and a successful save apparently makes the body reappear on the prime, but the soul is apparently still on the plane of shadow. Maybe the soul and body reunite when the spell ends? But you need a limited wish to reunite the soul and body. So what does happen when the spell ends? A mordenkainen's disjunction does "this" (fuse soul and body?) but "reunites and fuses the soul and body." Does the "but" mean that "this" is something other than reuniting and fusing the soul and body? How is reuniting different from fusing? Can you fuse body and soul without reuniting them? Can you reunite soul and body without fusing them? I really don't understand what is supposed to be happening here.

What happens if the subject of the spell is an intelligent undead (which has a soul)? What happens if you have no body (because you are incorporeal)?

Irritating typos/errors: "loose" instead of "lose," "substenance" instead of "substance," "they" with a singular antecedent, "effected" instead of "affected," "residue... which take" instead of "residue... which takes", unnecessary commas, some spell names italicized and others not...

My suggestion is to make the character incorporeal and give him a dex and str of 0 for the spell duration. Shift him or her to the adjacent plane of shadow, with only a vague outline indicating the character's presence. Spells and attacks cannot affect the character unless they can also affect the plane of shadow. (Magic weapons, ghost touch weapons and force effects can't do this, iirc. If the character was on the ethereal plane, perhaps, or if incorporeal, perhaps, but neither is the case.) While on the ethereal plane the character suffers bad effects (con damage if you like, or hit point loss). To end the spell prematurely you must go to the plane of shadow and cast dispel magic or the equivalent. Casting such spells on the prime has no effect, since not even a mordenkainen's disjunction spills over to the plane of shadow. If the character is removed from the plane of shadow, the constitution damage stops immediately.

A very interesting spell, but as written it is hard to understand!

 

[Ferret]

Things in yellow I'm changing it. The rest is an explanation or clarification.

Ferret, you are introducing a whole different status for the body, and a weird status for the murkily defined soul. "For all practical purposes it doesn't exist"- but apparently the character still retains the body, and the body can still disappear under the right circumstances. And the body is apparently still taking constitution damage, even though it doesn't exist. What if the hit points drop below zero? Does it start to die, this body that "for all practical purposes" doesn't exist? Nothing is more practical than damage, death and dying!

Non-existant is not a status, in game terms, they don't exist for the duration of the spell. Simple as that. The soul is seperated from the body and on the plane of shadow. I think the DMG may define what a soul is, basicly everything you can poke or prod is your body. The rest is your soul.

The body is between planes, I would have liked to say limbo but that is a plane, and as far as I'm is concerned not existing and being on limbo(not the plane) just as well be the same thing. Its the same way that a word document doesn't 'exist' until you open it. It's still there though. The body won't take anymore damage, it'll be suspened. I did think about making the con damage only take effect after the spell ends, and in hindsight that looks like a better idea

Apparently the soul and body can be reunited. How? A dispel magic and a successful save apparently makes the body reappear on the prime, but the soul is apparently still on the plane of shadow. Maybe the soul and body reunite when the spell ends? But you need a limited wish to reunite the soul and body. So what does happen when the spell ends? A mordenkainen's disjunction does "this" (fuse soul and body?) but "reunites and fuses the soul and body." Does the "but" mean that "this" is something other than reuniting and fusing the soul and body? How is reuniting different from fusing? Can you fuse body and soul without reuniting them? Can you reunite soul and body without fusing them? I really don't understand what is supposed to be happening here.

When you cast the Dispel magic (and the check succeeds) you end the spell. If the character makes another will save the body is spat out onto the Prime material plane, but has no soul. The character suffers from the con damage and the previous 'suspension' of damge ceases. To put the soul and the body back together (fuse) you must first but them near/ontop of each other *on the same plane*(reunite). Then you cast Lesser wish to stick the soul back into the body. If you fail the will save then the body is destroyed. To put things right you could cast a Wish spell to recreate the body and if they are near to each other they will fuse. It should take a level off or something.

When you cast Mordenkainen's disjuction you fuse the body and soul. The character is back to who they were. Two become one, and an other anology you feel like. The character takes the damage they recieved and stops taking further damage. However the character is now on the plane of shadows. No wish spells required.

When you cast wish the character and soul appear fused, and on the prime material palne. You still take the damage to con.

What happens if the subject of the spell is an intelligent undead (which has a soul)? What happens if you have no body (because you are incorporeal)?

As long as there is something that can be seperated from the soul then it works. The incorporeal creature might not have a body but it isn't just a soul.

Irritating typos/errors: "loose" instead of "lose," "substenance" instead of "substance," "they" with a singular antecedent, "effected" instead of "affected," "residue... which take" instead of "residue... which takes", unnecessary commas, some spell names italicized and others not...

All edited. Mostly.

I'm really sure that Substenance is a real word, really really sure. Although there is a nagging voice that says I'm just phoneticly spelling substance with an odd dialect... And I always that whilst They'' usually refered to multiple people, it can be a non-gender specific pronoun, such as "They could be a he or a she".

My suggestion is to make the character incorporeal and give him a dex and str of 0 for the spell duration. Shift him or her to the adjacent plane of shadow, with only a vague outline indicating the character's presence. Spells and attacks cannot affect the character unless they can also affect the plane of shadow. (Magic weapons, ghost touch weapons and force effects can't do this, iirc. If the character was on the ethereal plane, perhaps, or if incorporeal, perhaps, but neither is the case.) While on the ethereal plane the character suffers bad effects (con damage if you like, or hit point loss). To end the spell prematurely you must go to the plane of shadow and cast dispel magic or the equivalent. Casting such spells on the prime has no effect, since not even a mordenkainen's disjunction spills over to the plane of shadow. If the character is removed from the plane of shadow, the constitution damage stops immediately.

A very interesting spell, but as written it is hard to understand!

It seems like a way to go around the problem rather then fix it. It already makes a faint outline, kinda. I don't like the ease of reversing the spell by being able to.

Also there is a tie to where they were and the soul, thats how the spells (mentioned) affect the character.

I may change it so that the body is just souless and the soul is trapped in the plane of shadows. The way it is I can't imagine it A) being any use in short term combat and B) in the long term any fun for the person aflicted with it.

 

[Ferret]

Current version

Disjoin soul
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: Standard action
Range: Close (25ft. + 5ft. / 2 levels)
Effect: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level.
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell resistance: Yes

The spell disjoins the soul and for all intents and purposes, the body temporarily ceases to exist, whilst the soul is trapped on a random, hostile part of the Plane of Shadow. With the body non-existent, and the plane of shadow taking its toll on they character’s soul they begin to lose some of their substanence. All that can be seen of the creature is a planar residue, which usually takes the shape of the character. Any attempt to affect this residue fails, and anyone trying to touch them passes through the image as though it was thin treacle.

For the duration of the spell they have no physical body, on any plane, meaning they are unable to act. Due to the lack of physical body they cannot be harmed, healed or affected in any other bodily sense, any persistent damaging affects are suspended for the duration of the spell but resumes when the spell ends and continues unchanged. They do however take one point of constitution damage and one more for every five rounds that they spend in the plane of shadows. Due to the suspension of damaging affects the constitution damage dealt by the spell only takes affect after the spell ends.

A Dispel cast on the residue of the creature simply severs the link between the residue and the soul, the soul is still trapped and the character must make another will save to retain the body (other wise it is destroyed) which appears on the Prime material plane; the character continues to take constitution damage. Once reunited, by placing the body over the soul on the plane of shadows, they can be fused together using a Lesser Wish spell. Only a full wish spell can recreate the body and even so it takes off a level from the character. This will fuse the body and soul.

A Mordenkainen’s disjunction does the same as above but the body is returned to the soul however, but the character is now stuck on the plane of shadow.

A wish spell returns the creature to the prime material plane, fuses the body and soul but does not reverse the damage done to the character.

Creatures without souls are not affected. Incorporeal creatures are still affected even though they do not have a corporeal body they still have a dual nature, a ‘body’ and a soul.

Material Component: Obsidian dust blown towards target worth at least 700gp

 

[Ferret]

Bump? I'm still looking to see if this an ok spell.