From 4E to GURPS: D&D and Simulationism

I would love for D&D to include more of the 'simulationist' aspects of GURPS, not because I give a fig for 'realism,' so much as for the fun aspects of *choosing* to stab at the eye, or kick someone in the junk, or attempt an arm lock, instead of just 'I swing. Okay, hit.' or 'I grapple.'

GURPS, in my opinion, really shows it's roots as a child of Man-to-Man, a magicless melee combat simulator, and the armed combat system is simple and elegant, if you're used to it (and awkward and kludgey if not, just like every other game, ever). But the magic / fantasy aspects of it really never inspired in the same way, and I'm much more of a sorcery buff than a swords buff, so we ended up 'D&Difying' our games somewhat, allowing Magery to go up past 3 levels (to 1/3rd IQ, or 1/2 IQ for single-college Magery), and all damaging spells (or healing spells or other spells with levels of effect) to be able to be bumped up to as many dice as your Magery. After years of play, with Mages running around with 150 to 200 character points (this was old-school, when characters started at 100 cp, which is apparently considered 'weak' by today's standards), 5 die blasts fueled from 50 pt powerstones allowed them to blast dragons out of the sky in our epic 'reunion game.' The 200 cp earth mage created an elemental large enough to batter down the gates to the arch-nemesis' castle and we stormed in with an army of zombies raised by the necromancer (and, in GURPS, a single zombie is pretty scary, since nobody has more than 10-14 'hit points'). (We also made buying extra hit points and strength past 13 cheaper, in that game, so that the non-mages didn't get left out. Then again, we also 'sped things up' by getting rid of PD entirely, making combats run much quicker. Apparently GURPS 4E did something similar, but then added 3 to all defense numbers, *completely freaking negating the change,* but hey, at least they came close to our house rule!) :)

We even had to 'nerf' some things, such as Force Dome, as 'totally indestructible' turned out to be a little *too* good. (The nerfed Force Dome had DR equal to Magery and hit points equal to spell skill.)

It was as high-fantasy a game as anyone could want.

Even in an *unmodified* GURPS 3rd, the shining knight character single-handedly slew a dragon, and another fighter, more greco-roman in flavor, handily whacked the leg off of a tyrannosaurus, felling it before it could devour him (although a 'buff' spell from a friendly mage, increasing his ST by 4, helped!) and then simply backing off from the crippled beast, since two more T-Rexes were attacking his comrades!

None of this was done with over 200 cp (closer to 150, IIRC), back in 3rd edition (without any special rules to 'D&Dify' it), so it's hardly 'super-hero' power levels! GURPS can be as 'high-fantasy' or over-the-top as you want. I've both run and played in Forgotten Realms games using the GURPS rules, although our group now prefers 3rd edition D&D for fantasy. (GURPS fantasy worked much better for us than 2nd edition, which had quite a lot of stuff that didn't balance well with other stuff, once the plethora of kits, specialty priests, Complete Humanoids race and Players Options 'build your own race and class' stuff got into the mix.) We still use GURPS for some Supers games (alternating with Villains & Vigilantes and Mutants & Masterminds, since we are schizo that way).

One thing I always liked about GURPS is how you'd get 1 to 3 cp at the end of every play session, and could immediately make some minor change to your character, such as learning a skill or training one up, or mastering a new spell. In AD&D, you'd go four or more sessions between 'level-ups,' and often get a bunch of stuff at once, necessitating some dead time while everyone 'leveled up' their character. The slow gradual growth appealed to me better than the, 'Hey, by killing that last orc, I learned how to cast 3rd level spells!' Each new option had time to get integrated, instead of getting lost in the flurry of new stuff. Instead of 'evolving' every 4 or 5 sessions, you'd grow more like Batman, not gaining a bunch of new super-powers every six issues, but slowly getting better, building on his strengths. There was never a session that you walked away from thinking that you hadn't gained anything, because you hadn't leveled.
 
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My group has switched from 4th edition D&d :yawn:, to GURPS 4e.

The rules have inspired one our players to take on the gamaster role for our group, the options really sell the game and the lack of classes is a real breath of fresh air.
 


I prefer GURPS to either of them, though BRP does have some nostalgic appeal, it doesn't have quite the versatility of GURPS.

I agree that the Choasium system doesn't work as well as GURPS in supers or other areas like that. I've played it and run it but i couldn't seem to master the system for Traveller so I'm using the new Mongoose game. I've never run supers but the Hero system or Mutants and Masterminds seems more popular rule settings for that area.

Mike
 

sorry for resurrecting dead topics but i happened to stumble upon it and every time I see players smack talking the realism of D&D combat to praise Gurps´ realistic one I must give my POV.

Simply and direct

In Gurps you roll 3d6 for an attack, rolling under your skill it´s a success. The defender rolls 3d6 vs his defense skill, whatever it is. Now, the curious thing about this so realistic system is that, no matter what you are defending against, you roll 3d6 under your defense skill and voilá, you made it!

Got a defense score of 17? heck yeah, facing a 30-year of experience skilled swordsman? no worry, roll 17 or less and he won´t touch ya.
Facing a dire, gigantic rhinoceros the size of an elephant? he is charging right at ya? No worry, roll under 17 and you´re done.

The ancient great fiery wyrm? Come up to him, mock the heck out him. Ask the DM (or GM, or Storyteller...) if you can roll first (order of rolls shouldn´t matter, so it´s ok), rolled 17 or less? Continue the mocking dancing and singing: "Can´t touch this! ta nanana, nana, nana...".

In Gurps the skill of attacker matter only up to a point, since unskilled attackers also have the chance to miss their rolls, but the point is that: as long as the defender makes his roll, he is off alright, no matter what he is up against.

I mean, it should make a difference when it comes to defending yourself if you´re facing a common street punk or Lyoto Machida (UFC Light Heavyweight champion. His styles mixes a deadly variant of Shotokan with Jiu-Jitsu)

Just my POV, I know the topic is dead but.. needed to say it.
 

sorry for resurrecting dead topics but i happened to stumble upon it and every time I see players smack talking the realism of D&D combat to praise Gurps´ realistic one I must give my POV.

Simply and direct

In Gurps you roll 3d6 for an attack, rolling under your skill it´s a success. The defender rolls 3d6 vs his defense skill, whatever it is. Now, the curious thing about this so realistic system is that, no matter what you are defending against, you roll 3d6 under your defense skill and voilá, you made it!

Got a defense score of 17? heck yeah, facing a 30-year of experience skilled swordsman? no worry, roll 17 or less and he won´t touch ya.
Facing a dire, gigantic rhinoceros the size of an elephant? he is charging right at ya? No worry, roll under 17 and you´re done.

The ancient great fiery wyrm? Come up to him, mock the heck out him. Ask the DM (or GM, or Storyteller...) if you can roll first (order of rolls shouldn´t matter, so it´s ok), rolled 17 or less? Continue the mocking dancing and singing: "Can´t touch this! ta nanana, nana, nana...".

In Gurps the skill of attacker matter only up to a point, since unskilled attackers also have the chance to miss their rolls, but the point is that: as long as the defender makes his roll, he is off alright, no matter what he is up against.

I mean, it should make a difference when it comes to defending yourself if you´re facing a common street punk or Lyoto Machida (UFC Light Heavyweight champion. His styles mixes a deadly variant of Shotokan with Jiu-Jitsu)

Just my POV, I know the topic is dead but.. needed to say it.

There are provisions for attack skill to matter more, it depends on how fiddly you want to make the rules. One option is to reduce defense by one for every two the attack succeeds by. This means that Beefy McBadass attacking with a 22 skill rolls an average 10 to hit making Dodgy McSmartypants -6 on his defense roll. Now that 17 (an absurdly high def score in most genres) has become a mere 11. ;)
 

In Gurps you roll 3d6 for an attack, rolling under your skill it´s a success. The defender rolls 3d6 vs his defense skill, whatever it is. Now, the curious thing about this so realistic system is that, no matter what you are defending against, you roll 3d6 under your defense skill and voilá, you made it!

Unless he does an All-Out Attack, and attacks twice, causing you to take a -2 on your second parry. Hope you make them both. Or he might Feint-and-Attack.

Or unless he makes a Deceptive attack.

Got a defense score of 17? heck yeah, facing a 30-year of experience skilled swordsman? no worry, roll 17 or less and he won´t touch ya.

That's a huge defense score. Like Spider-Man huge.

Facing a dire, gigantic rhinoceros the size of an elephant? he is charging right at ya? No worry, roll under 17 and you´re done.

Actually, parrying very large opponents does come with serious consequences, beginning with the possibility of weapon breakage. And very large Dodge scores are a rarity.

The ancient great fiery wyrm? Come up to him, mock the heck out him. Ask the DM (or GM, or Storyteller...) if you can roll first (order of rolls shouldn´t matter, so it´s ok), rolled 17 or less? Continue the mocking dancing and singing: "Can´t touch this! ta nanana, nana, nana...".

Unless of course, he has multiple Extra Attacks, allowing him to bite, claw, claws, and tail slap you, in one round, causing a -2 cumulative penalty to each of your defenses.

In Gurps the skill of attacker matter only up to a point, since unskilled attackers also have the chance to miss their rolls, but the point is that: as long as the defender makes his roll, he is off alright, no matter what he is up against.

Unless he is up against an equally skilled foe. :)
 

I have played more GURPS 3e than I have played any other system, and a large chunk of that was heroic fantasy. It's definitely different, but fun none the less.

I've always liked the feel of D&D, but until 3e I never much cared for (large chunks of) the rules. So I bought a lot of 2e stuff for inspiration, but ran it with GURPS. I never got that feel that I was going for quite right, but it had a feel of it's own. Now, if I had been rule-savvy enough, or experienced enough in game theory, I might've been able to reproduce it better, but I wasn't and I didn't until D&D 3e came along, which seemed to have the feel built in.

As others have mentioned, where GURPS really shines is setting creation; outside of a couple of long running D&D-esque campaigns, we mostly ran one-shot games or short mini-campaigns inspired by whatever was on our minds at the time. We threw them together in no time by grabbing bits from the many various GURPS books we had.

Slap a couple of GURPS books together and you have a fully supported setting.
 

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