Frustration with KotSF and pacing
- Thread starter Herobizkit
- Start date
My group avoided about half the encounters in Slaying Stone, and it felt about the right length - after the intro session which included the wolf ambush it was 3 sessions in town, with 2 battles in each session. Even halving monster hp it was typically 60-90 minutes per battle, though I did add more monsters here & there.
When our group ran KoTSF it took a good three months of playing every other week for 8 hours at a go. We were learning 4e at the time and we're still playing through the module run, though we've taken breaks for other games, we're halfway through the Pyramid of Shadows now and really enjoyed the Thunderspire Labryinth.
So here's my gripes with KoTSF and they're not really gripes as much as what I consider an experienced DM's pain points. I did change many things.
1. I decided to use the Orcus conversion for the plotline such that I could better tie together the modules. There's a link somewhere on the forums for this.
2. I decided to tie every character to one of the hooks from the outset and gave each player a brief on what they knew about the Nentir Vale and who their friends were as well as the rumors about the keep and the tie in of the former knightly guard of the keep into the campaign's history to those characters that had four ranks in history.
3. I decided that the leadership of winterhaven was largely incompetent and propped up by secondary allegiances. This became clear to the players when one of the characters died, and couldn't be raised immediately. The characters they hired from the local adventuring population (all two of them to choose from) each had their own ties in.
So as you can tell the problem with the story of the module is that it's choppy. The flavor is there to really make something special out of it and I'd love to run it again now that I've done it once. Mechanically the stats are MM1 worthy and new classes will burn through the encounters but I can absolutely guarantee that you can kill players if you want with the kobold lair encounter. We almost had a TPK there with a five person group because the party didn't handle the terrain well.
Back to story, putting the time in to setting up the characters with key information kept things moving and helped make sense of the piece.
So here's my gripes with KoTSF and they're not really gripes as much as what I consider an experienced DM's pain points. I did change many things.
1. I decided to use the Orcus conversion for the plotline such that I could better tie together the modules. There's a link somewhere on the forums for this.
2. I decided to tie every character to one of the hooks from the outset and gave each player a brief on what they knew about the Nentir Vale and who their friends were as well as the rumors about the keep and the tie in of the former knightly guard of the keep into the campaign's history to those characters that had four ranks in history.
3. I decided that the leadership of winterhaven was largely incompetent and propped up by secondary allegiances. This became clear to the players when one of the characters died, and couldn't be raised immediately. The characters they hired from the local adventuring population (all two of them to choose from) each had their own ties in.
So as you can tell the problem with the story of the module is that it's choppy. The flavor is there to really make something special out of it and I'd love to run it again now that I've done it once. Mechanically the stats are MM1 worthy and new classes will burn through the encounters but I can absolutely guarantee that you can kill players if you want with the kobold lair encounter. We almost had a TPK there with a five person group because the party didn't handle the terrain well.
Back to story, putting the time in to setting up the characters with key information kept things moving and helped make sense of the piece.
Gryph
First Post
That was one of my favorite things about it when I ran it for my sons. It was sandboxy enough a party can complete the story without having to slog through every possible encounter.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
We have several issues that are all kind of jumbled together.
1) Its a hackfest: I actually liked KotSF, but ya, its one fight after another. At 1.5 hours per fight over 30 encounters, it is 45 hours of play, plus RP time. My main problem with this, is not that it takes time per se, but that it can repetitive and tedious.
2) your fights are a little slow: This is not unique to you, its a 4E thing, but only 2 or 3 fights in the whole adventure need to take 2 hours. There are lots and lots of tips on speeding up combat here on the boards, and you could certainly start a new thread on it. And yes, this will get much worse at higher levels if the group doesn't get on top of it.
3) no, your DM does not need to run everyfight in the adventure: this is the easiest solution to the problems you note...but then again
4) your session math makes no sense: At 4 hours a pop, it should take maybe 12 sessions for the adventure. Thats a lot. But given that you have already made it through 4, 8 sessions is January and February (or less if you play more this year). You are missing a month there.
5) Are there other DM issues: I have a hard time getting the subtext here, but is other stuff bothering you or the group or the DM?
A question: where are you in the adventure right now? Like what have you been fighting or doing recently?
1) Its a hackfest: I actually liked KotSF, but ya, its one fight after another. At 1.5 hours per fight over 30 encounters, it is 45 hours of play, plus RP time. My main problem with this, is not that it takes time per se, but that it can repetitive and tedious.
2) your fights are a little slow: This is not unique to you, its a 4E thing, but only 2 or 3 fights in the whole adventure need to take 2 hours. There are lots and lots of tips on speeding up combat here on the boards, and you could certainly start a new thread on it. And yes, this will get much worse at higher levels if the group doesn't get on top of it.
3) no, your DM does not need to run everyfight in the adventure: this is the easiest solution to the problems you note...but then again
4) your session math makes no sense: At 4 hours a pop, it should take maybe 12 sessions for the adventure. Thats a lot. But given that you have already made it through 4, 8 sessions is January and February (or less if you play more this year). You are missing a month there.
5) Are there other DM issues: I have a hard time getting the subtext here, but is other stuff bothering you or the group or the DM?
A question: where are you in the adventure right now? Like what have you been fighting or doing recently?
Infiniti2000
First Post
This is a very astute question. I have no idea why there's an option "d" in the OP unless TerraDave has honed in on the crux of the problem.
Herobizkit
Adventurer
This is definitely one of the sources of frustration that I'm feeling. I AM a little spoiled, however... most of my gaming over the past decade has been one-on-one solo campaigns chock full of heavy RP. 4e has been jarring in that sense.
I feel that we hit a real "ah-ha" moment during our last major fight --
the adult cruthik and its brood
True, but the young DM insists on running it exactly as is.
Well, April is our "work" month at school, so it'll be all over by then.
Since the last time we played, things all sort of came together. My only gripe is the utter lack of "free time" as the module seems to be a "timed" one. That, and that we were dropped into a fight (undead in the town) as soon as we tried to get some downtime.
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
I feel weird saying this but.... I've played in the game and run it on seperate occassions.
No 'real' problems with either instance. When I played, the GM ran it like we were members of the Black Company and we were very mercenary. He brought the town to life, we pushed for money from him to get rid of the various threats to the town, there were some subtext the GM brought to the game in other venues, we were money hungery so went to the keep anyway, etc...
When I ran it, the players were eager to see how the game works and rushed into the combat side of things with a lot of eagerness to test out the new engine with their new characters.
Mind you, that was then so to speak, and well, the game has certainly evolved a bit, but the lower levels have suffered less than the mid in terms of things like Monster Damage, the utility of rituals, etc...
From where I'm sitting, it sounds like you're expecting and getting enjoyement out of the rapid advancement as some type of reward as opposed to engaging (the little) story of the adventure.
No 'real' problems with either instance. When I played, the GM ran it like we were members of the Black Company and we were very mercenary. He brought the town to life, we pushed for money from him to get rid of the various threats to the town, there were some subtext the GM brought to the game in other venues, we were money hungery so went to the keep anyway, etc...
When I ran it, the players were eager to see how the game works and rushed into the combat side of things with a lot of eagerness to test out the new engine with their new characters.
Mind you, that was then so to speak, and well, the game has certainly evolved a bit, but the lower levels have suffered less than the mid in terms of things like Monster Damage, the utility of rituals, etc...
From where I'm sitting, it sounds like you're expecting and getting enjoyement out of the rapid advancement as some type of reward as opposed to engaging (the little) story of the adventure.
Herobizkit
Adventurer
On a new note, I've recently learned that the original adventure was updated and now free in PDF form on the Wizards site, so I've pointed that out to the DM and he's checking the differences now.
Joe's got it right, too... we're much more excited to advance our characters to 4th or even 5th... it's hard to enjoy the story when every action invokes a fight sequence.
Joe's got it right, too... we're much more excited to advance our characters to 4th or even 5th... it's hard to enjoy the story when every action invokes a fight sequence.
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