Full attack and Improved Grapple

[FrankTrollman]

I'm pretty sure that the grapple rules do not supercede the natural weapon rules and allow you to iterative attacks with natural weapons. Natural weapons are just in a list of other options that happen to already be usable iteratively - it never says anything about disregarding the normal natural weapon attack restrictions so I can't see it doing that.

Regardless, whichever reading you have - this does not change the fact that seemingly a Brown Bear's Improved Grab ability is disadvantageous. A Brown Bear does not have a high enough BAB to get any iterative attacks and normally has three attacks. It can start a grapple as a free action, but it loses two of its attacks, takes a -4 penalty to-hit with its only remaining attack, and suffers defensive penalties against any and all other enemies.

The bear loses significantly - and seems to gain nothing. I know that either I or the author have completely missed something important.

-Frank

 

[Olorin]

I posted a similar thread to this earlier and ended up emailing the Sage to see what he would say... here is his reply (I used a Dire Bear in my example, but the idea is the same):

3.5 doesn't make the issue terribly clear. I suggest you simply allw the bear one grabble check fo each natural weapon, with the bear dealing natural weapon damage for each success.


Misspellings aside, I agree with this... the way I will run it is the bear attacks with his claws, if one of them succeeds in grabbing the target then he gets grapple checks for each remaining natural weapon at -4. This is if he chooses to fully grapple the target, otherwise he gets the -20 to subsequent grapple checks with the claw that is holding the target, and normal attacks with the rest of his natural weapons to other targets.

I realize this breaks the normal grappling rules, but creature's natural weapons are an exception to the normal BAB/number of attacks system anyway, and it feels right to me. A Bear (or Gray Render or whatever), should be able to maul away at something it has grabbed, with the penalty due to attacking something held without the normal leverage and freedom of movement it normally has.

 

[FrankTrollman]

3.5 doesn't make the issue terribly clear. I suggest you simply allw the bear one grabble check fo each natural weapon, with the bear dealing natural weapon damage for each success.

But light weapons (and natural weapons) are supposed to be able to make normal attack rolls. It's how the game simulates stabbing giants in the arm with a dagger when you are held in their hand. I mean, it's not like you are going to beat the Giant in a grapple check.

If creatures had to win grapple checks to inflict damage - the "attack your opponent" option (where-in attacking with a natural weapon is located) may as well not exist - after all the "damage your opponent" option already works like that.

That Sage answer contradicts the written word and any possible sensical intent as well. However it is supposed to work - that isn't it.

-Frank

 

[Olorin]

But light weapons (and natural weapons) are supposed to be able to make normal attack rolls. It's how the game simulates stabbing giants in the arm with a dagger when you are held in their hand. I mean, it's not like you are going to beat the Giant in a grapple check.

If creatures had to win grapple checks to inflict damage - the "attack your opponent" option (where-in attacking with a natural weapon is located) may as well not exist - after all the "damage your opponent" option already works like that.

That Sage answer contradicts the written word and any possible sensical intent as well. However it is supposed to work - that isn't it.

-Frank

Well then, allow natural weapons (minus the one that established the hold, that's covered by Improved Grab) attacks at -4, instead of grapple checks. Attack Your Opponent per natural weapon.

 

[youspoonybard]

Frank -

Bear grabs with Improved Grab. Next turn, he "Damages his Opponent" using an opposed grapple check. If he wins the opposed grapple check, he deals unarmed strike damage and Improved Grab kicks in, dealing the damage listed.

He could do other things, like Pin your opponent, and still deal damage, too.

 

[Caliban]

I'm pretty sure that the grapple rules do not supercede the natural weapon rules and allow you to iterative attacks with natural weapons. Natural weapons are just in a list of other options that happen to already be usable iteratively - it never says anything about disregarding the normal natural weapon attack restrictions so I can't see it doing that.

Regardless, whichever reading you have - this does not change the fact that seemingly a Brown Bear's Improved Grab ability is disadvantageous. A Brown Bear does not have a high enough BAB to get any iterative attacks and normally has three attacks. It can start a grapple as a free action, but it loses two of its attacks, takes a -4 penalty to-hit with its only remaining attack, and suffers defensive penalties against any and all other enemies.

The bear loses significantly - and seems to gain nothing. I know that either I or the author have completely missed something important.

-Frank

Well, you are overlooking an aspect of Improved Grab: Creatures with Improved grab automatically do damage equal to the attack that established the hold when they win a grapple check. (MM, page 310.) It's creatures that don't have Improved Grab that are limited to Unarmed Damage, or using Natural Weapons at a -4.

Also remember that animals like the brown bear usually aren't fighting 4-6 opponents. Improved Grab can be a killer when it's one on one, even if they are reduced to one attack a round. When there are multiple opponents, grappling one of them opens you up to everyone else, especially the rogues.

Another tactic, if you are running a creature that has a good grapple check, and multiple natural attacks: let go of your opponent at the beginning of your turn (Free Action), make your full natural attack sequence, and grapple them again if thelast attack hits. I've seen PC fighters do something similar when fighting an enemy wizard: Let him go, whack him with your iterative attacks, then grapple him again on your last attack (works best when hasted).

No penalties to your melee attacks, your opponent is grappled on their turn, and you only risk losing them if your last attack misses (or if they have a good grapple bonus as well, in which case you probably don't want to be grappling them).

 

[Olorin]

Well, you are overlooking an aspect of Improved Grab: Creatures with Improved grab automatically do damage equal to the attack that established the hold when they win a grapple check. (MM, page 310.) It's creatures that don't have Improved Grab that are limited to Unarmed Damage, or using Natural Weapons at a -4.

You left out something important there:

Improved Grab, 3rd paragraph: "... If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. ..."

I take that to mean that you get the damage on grapple check only for the weapon that established the hold, not all natural weapons on grapple checks. I don't see any reason why a bear that has a hold with one claw couldn't attack with the other (at -4) and if he hits, try to do a grab with that claw as well. Then each claw would get a grapple check on successive rounds to do the automatic damage. Each round he can try to bite the grapplee at -4 as well.

 

[Caliban]

You left out something important there:

Improved Grab, 3rd paragraph: "... If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. ..."
[/b]

No, I didn't leave that out. Go back and read my post again, it's in there.

I take that to mean that you get the damage on grapple check only for the weapon that established the hold, not all natural weapons on grapple checks.

Yup, that's what it means.

I don't see any reason why a bear that has a hold with one claw couldn't attack with the other (at -4) and if he hits, try to do a grab with that claw as well. Then each claw would get a grapple check on successive rounds to do the automatic damage. Each round he can try to bite the grapplee at -4 as well.

Nope, not the way it works.

If you have Improved Grab, you can make iterative Grapple checks as determined by your BAB, and each successful grapple check will do the full damage listed for the attack that established the grapple, without any -4 penalty. (If you have Constrict as well as Improved Grab, you do natural weapon damage plus Constrict damage. Kind of like a PC using Armor Spikes in a grapple.)

If you want to attack with your other natural weapons, you need to make a -20 on your grapple checks, and give up the attacks with the natural weapon used to grab them. Then you can use your other natural weapons to make attacks as normal, without any penalty. You also do not lose your Dex bonus to AC against other opponents.

If you do not have Improved Grab, and you want to use your Natural Weapon damage instead of just unarmed damage for a creature your size, you would need to use the "Attack Opponent" option and take the -4 on your attack rolls, and limited to iterative attacks instead of your full natural weapon attack sequence. Basically, creatures without Improved Grab aren't really built to grapple very well.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, I would recommend against doing this. It's silly and abusive and encourages players to find/manufacture and exploit similar loopholes until the game is not about imagination and heroic story but rather who can create the latest and most broken kewl combo using the most obscure FAQ loopholes.

Anyway, there's nothing in the PH description of grappling that indicates that a foe who has not successfully pinned his opponent may end the grapple as a free action. (And there's no logical reason that any one of two grappling foes--neither of whom is at a particular advantage--would find it easier to end the grapple than the other one). All of that was in the 3.0 FAQ and ought to die a well deserved death with the other silly rulings from that document.

Another tactic, if you are running a creature that has a good grapple check, and multiple natural attacks: let go of your opponent at the beginning of your turn (Free Action), make your full natural attack sequence, and grapple them again if thelast attack hits. I've seen PC fighters do something similar when fighting an enemy wizard: Let him go, whack him with your iterative attacks, then grapple him again on your last attack (works best when hasted).

No penalties to your melee attacks, your opponent is grappled on their turn, and you only risk losing them if your last attack misses (or if they have a good grapple bonus as well, in which case you probably don't want to be grappling them).

 

[Caliban]

Actually, I would recommend against doing this. It's silly and abusive and encourages players to find/manufacture and exploit similar loopholes until the game is not about imagination and heroic story but rather who can create the latest and most broken kewl combo using the most obscure FAQ loopholes.

Anyway, there's nothing in the PH description of grappling that indicates that a foe who has not successfully pinned his opponent may end the grapple as a free action. (And there's no logical reason that any one of two grappling foes--neither of whom is at a particular advantage--would find it easier to end the grapple than the other one). All of that was in the 3.0 FAQ and ought to die a well deserved death with the other silly rulings from that document.

Whoops, your right. You technically have to win an opposed grapple check to leave a grapple, unless you have your opponent pinned.