Full Attack for complicated Thri-Kreen

[blargney]

A Thri-Kreen's natural full attack is four claws and a bite. However, I haven't been able to figure what his full attack including damage bonuses from Strength would be if he had:

Str 20
BAB +6
Multiattack
Multidexterity
Multiweapon
wielding a masterwork guisarme in two arms (2d4, x3, 10' reach)
wearing a spiked shield on one arm (and bashing with it) (1d6)
one claw empty (1d4)
and the bite attack. (1d4, half Str)

If he also has the Combat Reflexes feat, does he threaten both 5' and 10' away for AoO's?

For bonus marks, what will his full attack be when he takes Improved Multiweapon?

Thanks!
-blarg

 

[reapersaurus]

As far as I know, the only quasi-official source for published Wizards rules in regard to natural attacks while holding other weapons are in Dragon #292, in the Saurial section.

Good luck.

 

[blargney]

As far as I know, the only quasi-official source for published Wizards rules in regard to natural attacks while holding other weapons are in Dragon #292, in the Saurial section.

So does that mean the full attack without those feats is:

+10/+5 Masterwork Guisarme (2d4+7, x3) and +10 Masterwork Shield Spikes (1d6+2), no claw, no bite?

If he holds a dagger in his fourth claw, could he add +9 Dagger (1d4+2) to his full attack?

 

[Spatula]

A Thri-Kreen's natural full attack is four claws and a bite. However, I haven't been able to figure what his full attack including damage bonuses from Strength would be if he had:

Str 20
BAB +6
Multiattack
Multidexterity
Multiweapon
wielding a masterwork guisarme in two arms (2d4, x3, 10' reach)
wearing a spiked shield on one arm (and bashing with it) (1d6)
one claw empty (1d4)
and the bite attack. (1d4, half Str)

If he also has the Combat Reflexes feat, does he threaten both 5' and 10' away for AoO's?

For bonus marks, what will his full attack be when he takes Improved Multiweapon?

Thanks!
-blarg

Guisarme: +6 (BAB) +5 (Str) +1 (Masterwork) -2 (multiweapon fighting) = +10/+5, can only attack opponents 10' away
Shield bash: +6 +5 -2 = +9
Claw: +6 +5 = +11
Bite: +6 (BAB) +5 (Str) -2 (secondary attack w/multiattack) = +9

The guisarme threatens 10' away, everything else threatens 5' away. Combat Reflexes doesn't change any of that unless I'm missing something.

Possible grey areas are counting the 2-handed guisarme as the primary hand (thus allowing the second attack at +5), and not applying the multiweapon fighting penalty to the natural attacks.

EDIT: The guisarme gets x1.5 Str to damage, the bash and bite x0.5, the claw x1.0.

If you add Improved Multiweapon Fighting, the shield bash attack becomes +9/+4. No extra attacks for the claw and bite.

 

[blargney]

Re: Re: Full Attack for complicated Thri-Kreen

The guisarme threatens 10' away, everything else threatens 5' away. Combat Reflexes doesn't change any of that unless I'm missing something.

Possible grey areas are counting the 2-handed guisarme as the primary hand (thus allowing the second attack at +5), and not applying the multiweapon fighting penalty to the natural attacks.

If you add Improved Multiweapon Fighting, the shield bash attack becomes +9/+4. No extra attacks for the claw and bite.

That's excellent, thank you!

The reason I mentioned Combat Reflexes was only to find out if he threatened both 5' and 10' for attack of opportunity purposes, rather than for the full attack.

Why are those grey areas grey?

If he wielded a dagger in the fourth claw, then he would get +9/+4 (1d4+2) with Improved Multiweapon fighting, right?

-blarg

 

[blargney]

Hmm, I just realized that if he takes EWP: Spiked Chain rather than Combat Reflexes, his full attack option gets a lot more versatility.

Either that or a feat that allows him to use a polearm on an adjacent foe - does that exist in any of the sourcebooks?

-blarg

 

[Spatula]

Re: Re: Re: Full Attack for complicated Thri-Kreen

The reason I mentioned Combat Reflexes was only to find out if he threatened both 5' and 10' for attack of opportunity purposes, rather than for the full attack.

All Combat Reflexes does is let you make more than one AoO per round (depending on your Dex), and lets you make AoOs when flat-footed. I don't see how it applies to your question. If someone takes an action that provokes an AoO in any square that you threaten, you can take that attack.

Why are those grey areas grey?

They could be open to interpretation. Two-weapon fighting typically involves 2 light weapons, or 1 one-handed weapon and a light weapon. Multi-weapon fighting complicates matters, because it allows for wielding a two-handed weapon and still having off-hands left over to make more attacks with, and the rules don't address how to handle it. The example thri-kreen has a non-light weapon in an off-hand (the guisarme, which is being held by the primary hand and an off-hand), so should the multiweapon penalties be -2 or -4? I could make a case for both, but since the 'kreen isn't getting anything extra out of it I'd go with -2. Similar situation with applying the multiweapon fighting penalties to the natural attacks - do the penalties apply to all attacks made in the round, or only those attacks made with manufactured weapons? The rules never address the topic of combining two-weapon fighting and natural attacks for monsters (although they do for normal PCs).

If he wielded a dagger in the fourth claw, then he would get +9/+4 (1d4+2) with Improved Multiweapon fighting, right?

Yes.

 

[blargney]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Full Attack for complicated Thri-Kreen

All Combat Reflexes does is let you make more than one AoO per round (depending on your Dex), and lets you make AoOs when flat-footed. I don't see how it applies to your question. If someone takes an action that provokes an AoO in any square that you threaten, you can take that attack.

Fair enough! Combat Reflexes doesn't really apply to the question, but you answered the question that I was asking to my complete satisfaction anyways!

They could be open to interpretation. Two-weapon fighting typically involves 2 light weapons, or 1 one-handed weapon and a light weapon. Multi-weapon fighting complicates matters, because it allows for wielding a two-handed weapon and still having off-hands left over to make more attacks with, and the rules don't address how to handle it. The example thri-kreen has a non-light weapon in an off-hand (the guisarme, which is being held by the primary hand and an off-hand), so should the multiweapon penalties be -2 or -4? I could make a case for both, but since the 'kreen isn't getting anything extra out of it I'd go with -2. Similar situation with applying the multiweapon fighting penalties to the natural attacks - do the penalties apply to all attacks made in the round, or only those attacks made with manufactured weapons? The rules never address the topic of combining two-weapon fighting and natural attacks for monsters (although they do for normal PCs).

So these interpretations basically come down to DM choice, as long as they remain consistent.

Thank you for your clarifications!
-blarg

 

[Naar]

If you were a gnoll or volodni, the feat Long Reach from Unapproachable East would allow you to threaten both 5' and 10' away with a long- or shortspear.

Hmm. I guess that's not really very helpful. Maybe your DM will be nice and make a similar feat for your situation.

 

[blargney]

If you were a gnoll or volodni, the feat Long Reach from Unapproachable East would allow you to threaten both 5' and 10' away with a long- or shortspear.

Hmm. I guess that's not really very helpful. Maybe your DM will be nice and make a similar feat for your situation.

Thanks for the info!
-blarg

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as I know, the only quasi-official source for published Wizards rules in regard to natural attacks while holding other weapons are in Dragon #292, in the Saurial section.

Don't forget the Minotaur.

In the 3E Monster Manual, he gets Huge Greataxe +9/+4 melee, Gore +4 melee.

That's a BAB of +6/+1 with the axe, and a secondary natural attack at full BAB - 5 with the horns.

So in the case of the Thri-kreen, I'd say the Guisarme would follow normal iterative BAB progression. The spiked shield would be a normal off-hand weapon attack. The claw would be at full BAB, as a primary natural weapon, and the bite would be at full BAB -2 as a secondary natural weapon with Multiattack.

His off-hand weapons are all light (shield or natural), so a blanket MWF penalty of -2 would apply. This would definitely come off the guisarme and the shield, and following the precedent of the monk using a non-monk weapon and unarmed strike, I'd say take the -2 penalty on the claw and the bite as well.

This is one of Spatula's grey areas, and the Monk and Minotaur examples aren't in complete agreement. The Minotaur isn't suffering TWF penalties at all for using a natural weapon in conjunction with its axe, while it's clear that a Monk does. I think I'd say that the Thri-keen could use just the guisarme and its bite attack without incurring multi-weapon fighting penalties, but as soon as it uses an "off-arm" to get an extra attack, the multi-weapon penalty applies to all its attacks in the round.

So, my final breakdown:

Guisarme +10/+5.
Spiked Shield +9 (/+4 with IMWF)
Claw +9 (/+4 with IMWF, again using the monk example of considering an unarmed strike an off-hand attack)
Bite +7

But I agree, there's grey in there

-Hyp.

 

[blargney]

If the thri-kreen decided to use the shield to defend, rathre than attack with the spike, would the two-weapon penalty be lifted?

Guisarme +12/+7 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, +1 MW)
Claw +11 (+6 BAB, +5 Str)
Bite +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 secondary natural weapon)

Is that right?
-blarg

 

[gtJormungand]

You only get one primary weapon, which would be in this case the Guisarme. For a reference, see the Drider (in either edition); it dual wields short swords/daggers and then takes the -5 for its secondary natural weapon (bite).

This is where the multiattack feat comes in handy.

Guisarme +10/+5 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, +1 MW, -2 TWP)
Spiked Shield +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 TWP)
Claw +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 Multiattack*)
Bite +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 Multiattack*)


*Without multiattack, these would be -5.

 

[Spatula]

So, my final breakdown:

Guisarme +10/+5.
Spiked Shield +9 (/+4 with IMWF)
Claw +9 (/+4 with IMWF, again using the monk example of considering an unarmed strike an off-hand attack)
Bite +7

But I agree, there's grey in there

And why no second attack with the bite if the thri-kreen has Imp. 2WF?

The thing is, unarmed attacks made by normal PCs have never followed the same rules as natural weapons used by monsters. Monster natural weapons don't get iterative attacks for high BAB, period (in 3.0, Slam attacks were an exception though that does not appear to be the case in 3.5). But a human, for example, using an unarmed attack, does get extra attacks for high BAB. So on that basis, the thri-kreen should never get iterative attacks with its claw or its bite. On the plus side, it gets its full Strength bonus on any claw damage, which it wouldn't normally get with an off-hand attack.

It gets more confusing when you throw psionic powers into the mix, which allow the human (or whatever) to gain claw and bite attacks, that function like normal PC unarmed attacks...