Full Attack for complicated Thri-Kreen

[Hypersmurf]

As far as I know, the only quasi-official source for published Wizards rules in regard to natural attacks while holding other weapons are in Dragon #292, in the Saurial section.

Don't forget the Minotaur.

In the 3E Monster Manual, he gets Huge Greataxe +9/+4 melee, Gore +4 melee.

That's a BAB of +6/+1 with the axe, and a secondary natural attack at full BAB - 5 with the horns.

So in the case of the Thri-kreen, I'd say the Guisarme would follow normal iterative BAB progression. The spiked shield would be a normal off-hand weapon attack. The claw would be at full BAB, as a primary natural weapon, and the bite would be at full BAB -2 as a secondary natural weapon with Multiattack.

His off-hand weapons are all light (shield or natural), so a blanket MWF penalty of -2 would apply. This would definitely come off the guisarme and the shield, and following the precedent of the monk using a non-monk weapon and unarmed strike, I'd say take the -2 penalty on the claw and the bite as well.

This is one of Spatula's grey areas, and the Monk and Minotaur examples aren't in complete agreement. The Minotaur isn't suffering TWF penalties at all for using a natural weapon in conjunction with its axe, while it's clear that a Monk does. I think I'd say that the Thri-keen could use just the guisarme and its bite attack without incurring multi-weapon fighting penalties, but as soon as it uses an "off-arm" to get an extra attack, the multi-weapon penalty applies to all its attacks in the round.

So, my final breakdown:

Guisarme +10/+5.
Spiked Shield +9 (/+4 with IMWF)
Claw +9 (/+4 with IMWF, again using the monk example of considering an unarmed strike an off-hand attack)
Bite +7

But I agree, there's grey in there

-Hyp.

 

[blargney]

If the thri-kreen decided to use the shield to defend, rathre than attack with the spike, would the two-weapon penalty be lifted?

Guisarme +12/+7 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, +1 MW)
Claw +11 (+6 BAB, +5 Str)
Bite +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 secondary natural weapon)

Is that right?
-blarg

 

[gtJormungand]

You only get one primary weapon, which would be in this case the Guisarme. For a reference, see the Drider (in either edition); it dual wields short swords/daggers and then takes the -5 for its secondary natural weapon (bite).

This is where the multiattack feat comes in handy.

Guisarme +10/+5 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, +1 MW, -2 TWP)
Spiked Shield +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 TWP)
Claw +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 Multiattack*)
Bite +9 (+6 BAB, +5 Str, -2 Multiattack*)


*Without multiattack, these would be -5.

 

[Spatula]

So, my final breakdown:

Guisarme +10/+5.
Spiked Shield +9 (/+4 with IMWF)
Claw +9 (/+4 with IMWF, again using the monk example of considering an unarmed strike an off-hand attack)
Bite +7

But I agree, there's grey in there

And why no second attack with the bite if the thri-kreen has Imp. 2WF?

The thing is, unarmed attacks made by normal PCs have never followed the same rules as natural weapons used by monsters. Monster natural weapons don't get iterative attacks for high BAB, period (in 3.0, Slam attacks were an exception though that does not appear to be the case in 3.5). But a human, for example, using an unarmed attack, does get extra attacks for high BAB. So on that basis, the thri-kreen should never get iterative attacks with its claw or its bite. On the plus side, it gets its full Strength bonus on any claw damage, which it wouldn't normally get with an off-hand attack.

It gets more confusing when you throw psionic powers into the mix, which allow the human (or whatever) to gain claw and bite attacks, that function like normal PC unarmed attacks...