[FULL] OOC: Dichotomy's Age of Worms Redux [FULL]

[Dichotomy]

I believe that worthley is correct, both as to the "spirit" of the rule and as to the text. I believe that the adjective "free" lends itself to that conclusion. I believe this interpretation is further corroborated by that which is absent. In the paragraph after the one Ti quoted, it speaks about copying spells, lists the stuff you have to do (as outlined before), and goes on to say "If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below)." This text is not in the section about the "free" spells. I certainly admit that the interpretation worthley and I share is NOT a necessary interpretation of the rules, and that Ti's interpretation is quite plausible. Maybe they should hire lawyers to edit the rules for them.

All that said, this specific point of the discussion (whether "free" spells have to be written into one's spellbook or not) is tangential.

To return to the main issue at hand, based upon chat conversations I've had, it would appear to me that no one wants to talk about the issues in the manner that I have attempted to lay out. If that is incorrect, let me know. Unless someone wants the discussion to continue (I personally would like to continue it, because I would like to resolve it), I propose that we continue to use the RAW, despite the misgivings about them.

 

[worthley]

I am 100% for making changes to the rules about learning spells, spellbooks and such. I am also 100% against completely stoping the game while we figure this out. As I am the only one that is currently effected by this. I have no problem with keeping the game going, and once we have a solution, saying that Bazrim did whatever he could to during this down time.

I will post a proposed solution later today or tomorrow.

 

[TiCaudata]

Well I don't believe that RAW is unworkable, only inconvenient. Alright, that's not ENTIRELY true, I can't really deny that a 3 day minimum time frame for a level 1 spell is sucky. I think that in our current situation it works well enough since worthley won't be leveling up anyway.

A not sucky situation might be something along the lines of:
- Spellcraft 20 (or read magic) to decifer writing (not sure of timeline, I don't think 1 day is unreasonable though)
((decifering by spellcraft should only have to happen once per wizard rather than once per spell))
- Spellcraft 15 +/- level difference of the spell over the spells level of hours
(e.g. if he was trying to understand a 4th lvl spell it would be spellcraft 16 and take 4 hours)
((I don't particularly like how that works for the spellcraft check, harder spells should be MUCH harder))
- One hour per spell level to copy the spell.

I think this minimizes most of the time issues without horribly reducing the playablilty of the system. I don't think that 2 days is a bad amount of time for copying a 4th level spell or 4 1st level spells

 

[Dichotomy]

A not sucky situation might be something along the lines of:
- Spellcraft 20 (or read magic) to decifer writing (not sure of timeline, I don't think 1 day is unreasonable though)

While the rules are not explicit on the amount of time, I don't believe that, by the RAW, it takes any appreciable amount of time now to do the deciphering. Are you suggesting that we should change that to make it take a day?

((decifering by spellcraft should only have to happen once per wizard rather than once per spell))

I have no idea what this means.

- Spellcraft 15 +/- level difference of the spell over the spells level of hours
(e.g. if he was trying to understand a 4th lvl spell it would be spellcraft 16 and take 4 hours)
((I don't particularly like how that works for the spellcraft check, harder spells should be MUCH harder))

I don't think I understand your equation. Did I miss something?

- One hour per spell level to copy the spell.

I don't have anything in particular to say about this proposed solution.

As a general comment, you (meaning Ti) seem to agree with at least the underlying premise that it takes too long to learn spells. Your solution, to the extent that I can understand it, would tie the amount of time that it takes to learn spells to the complexity of the spell (as measured by spell level). However, I think that this solution doesn't hit the real issue. I'm going to guess that I just wrote too much before, so I'm now just going to plainly ask:

Given that there are certain points (at the end of story arcs, for example) when it is very possible to "build in" downtime, is such downtime sufficient to accommodate learning spells as dictated by the RAW?

 

[TiCaudata]

While the rules are not explicit on the amount of time, I don't believe that, by the RAW, it takes any appreciable amount of time now to do the deciphering. Are you suggesting that we should change that to make it take a day?

huh, I've been looking at that part wrong this whole time. You guys mean to tell me that you think 2 days is completely too much time to learn a spell from a complete stranger's unreadable text?

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day.

The use of the words "that particular spell" implies that you would have to do it for each spell. That's kind of silly, once you can decipher the writing of a particular wizard you should be able to always decipher it. This is less of an issue with decifering being a timeless check


I am trying to tie the difficulty of the spell into the amount of time it takes to learn it because of the overwhelming feedback saying that such a system might be desirable. I am also trying to simplify the equation required for linking spell difficulty with the amount of time required to learn it. Maybe if I try using something closer to mathematical formulas.

(In order for a wizard to copy a given spell they must)=(Pass a spellcraft check of a DC 15 +/- the difference between the level of the spell to be copied and the highest level spell the wizard can cast) AND (Spend the amount of time equal to the spell level to study the spell)

Of course, if the answer to my (much) earlier question about whether spells higher than a wizard can cast can be copied into their spellbook is "no" you can forget the '+' part of '+/-'.


Finally. Yes, I have been saying all along that I think there is more than ample enough time to cover all of the RAW flaws of learning new spells in the missed downtime between 'phases' of the adventure. I also think that the notion that if we can't learn spells super quickly we will die because the very next day we would absolutely need the spells is not actually that common of an occurrence.

 

[michael_noah]

huh, I've been looking at that part wrong this whole time. You guys mean to tell me that you think 2 days is completely too much time to learn a spell from a complete stranger's unreadable text?

No, I think that magic is made-up, and I think DnD is supposed to be fun, and I think that any game that teases you by telling you you can do something but then says, "Oops, not yet!" is not fun (or at least that portion of it is not fun).

 

[o3caudata]

I really don't think anyone has said it's too long to understand the complete strangers unreadable text.

I *think* we're saying that the MECHANIC doesn't fit in with the game. The wizard is the ONLY character that has this problem.

I also *think* that Ti's point can be connected to the fact that all the classes ACTUALLY have those delays, but we just take them in stride. Like feats/skills/etc. We don't make a point of saying 'I practice jumping'. (Which could easily be resolved by ROLE-PLAYING more, rather than waiting for the next battle.... the stupid barbarian says...) The disconnect i see is that there aren't rules mandating that kind of activity, but there are for the wizard in this task. I agree with Ti, to the point that it's better to encourage more role-playing dialog and non-combat events than modifying the game to fit a fast-paced combat environment. Remember when we used to say, "Why not just play a video game?"

The RAW for the spell goo are, at the very least, inconvenient with the pace of game we normally play. GENERALLY, i think, we encounter this situation(needing to copy spells) at a place where we are afforded time(re-supply runs, etc etc) and that doesn't require the modification of the pace or story line to include the RAW. Right now, and perhaps at some other point in the future, that isn't/may not be the case. I am by no means against saying, we accept that it just TAKES TIME to learn spells, but if we say that, i think we should commit to playing that time out better than we normally do. What i don't want, is to say, whatever lets ignore the RAW, you get the spells and lets keep playing....(Even as much as i want to just get back to playing.)

I'm not sure that clears anything up.

Essentially. I am ok with RAW, as long as Di(and everyone but Ti) is ok NOT just glossing over the time it takes. But if we're going to change it, I think Di should take the ideas that are out there, pick what he thinks corresponds to HIS game, and we can complain AFTER.......

i'd rather be playing.

 

[worthley]

So, I think we need to solve one problem at a time, instead of talking about everything at once, and getting confused. Hopefully this will make the process move smoothly. So, I am going to start with the problem I had to begin with.

I think it is incredibly stupid that a wizard has to copy a spell from a spellbook he now owns. I suggest that a wizard goes through all the steps for copying a spell from a borrowed spellbook, including spending the time it would take to copy a spell from a spellbook, but just not actually spend the money on copying the spell. After that, the wizard will be able to treat that spell in that spellbook as if they copied that spell into their own spellbook.

 

[michael_noah]

I also *think* that Ti's point can be connected to the fact that all the classes ACTUALLY have those delays, but we just take them in stride.

What other character needs to wait to use a new feat? The only thing wizards have in common with regard to spells is the 2 free ones. Those magically show up like feats and skills. The rest of a wizard's spells he needs to wait for.

Other classes also get to use their new loot right away (after IDing it, in the worst case). Wizards don't.

 

[TiCaudata]

Getting a spellbook isn't getting a new feat.

Getting a new animal companion = 1 day
Something that I think is pretty comparable to getting a book full of new spells.

IDing takes at least a day unless you have a wizard that has memorized a spell that is useless to surviving an adventure with you. So in that respect waiting in the wilderness to learn a spell might be faster than going back to a town, hiring a sage or wizard to ID and going back to the wilderness to kill the baddie. The biggest difference is that you can use something without IDing it, something that is potentially very dangerous.

There are spells that take a day to cast (e.g. hallow) while they don't get used much, they would required wait time.