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D&D 5E [Fun]Really Broken Combos

Flames of Phelethos is a Tiefling-only racial feat. Custom Lineage in Tasha's is "Instead of choosing one of the game's races..." - it is not of any of the races and doesn't qualify for any of the racial feats. Now, you can pick a tiefling and customize it as per Customizing Your Origin, but that doesn't grant the bonus feat that Custom Lineage does.
My interpretation is you can "write in" any race with a custom lineage. If the player writes in "Tiefling" they can qualify for tiefling racial feats (but obviously not half orc racial feats).
 

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Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
My interpretation is you can "write in" any race with a custom lineage. If the player writes in "Tiefling" they can qualify for tiefling racial feats (but obviously not half orc racial feats).
That interpretation is not supported by the rules.

For existing races, there are a large number of options to customize in the Customizing Your Origin section. If you want to play a Tiefling, this is it.

There is also the Custom Lineage sidebar, that reads "Instead of choosing one of the game's races for you character at 1st level, you can use the following traits to represent your character's lineage, giving you full control over how your character's origin shaped them".

Instead of one of the game's races. This is clear, there's no real room for debate. You have rules for customizing a race, and a separate option to create something different.
 


That interpretation is not supported by the rules.

For existing races, there are a large number of options to customize in the Customizing Your Origin section. If you want to play a Tiefling, this is it.

There is also the Custom Lineage sidebar, that reads "Instead of choosing one of the game's races for you character at 1st level, you can use the following traits to represent your character's lineage, giving you full control over how your character's origin shaped them".

Instead of one of the game's races. This is clear, there's no real room for debate. You have rules for customizing a race, and a separate option to create something different.

I would say that none of the particulars of the Custom Origin stats matter. I think the intent of Tasha's rules is pretty clear that the game's rules shouldn't be telling DMs and players what is or isn't a given race. That's why they removed the race restriction from Bladesinger. It's also why I would say that under Tasha's rules, Flames of Phlegethos should not have a strict race restriction in the first place.

FoP is not keyed to a racial feature, for example, like Dragon Fear is. Nothing in it seems to necessitate being a Tiefling or that it's not something any character could learn. All you're doing is calling upon hellfire. I don't see the race restriction as doing much of anything.

I legitimately don't see how someone could read the Customizing Your Origin section, let alone the sidebar from the latest UA, and honestly come to a different conclusion.

If you want to bar it that's fine. If you think it's overpowered or your setting has hellfire limited in some way then okay. But I don't think strictly enforcing race restrictions on anything is really grasping the intent of the Customizing Your Origin section or the changes WotC is moving forward with.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I would say that none of the particulars of the Custom Origin stats matter. I think the intent of Tasha's rules is pretty clear that the game's rules shouldn't be telling DMs and players what is or isn't a given race. That's why they removed the race restriction from Bladesinger. It's also why I would say that under Tasha's rules, Flames of Phlegethos should not have a strict race restriction in the first place.

FoP is not keyed to a racial feature, for example, like Dragon Fear is. Nothing in it seems to necessitate being a Tiefling or that it's not something any character could learn. All you're doing is calling upon hellfire. I don't see the race restriction as doing much of anything.

I legitimately don't see how someone could read the Customizing Your Origin section, let alone the sidebar from the latest UA, and honestly come to a different conclusion.

If you want to bar it that's fine. If you think it's overpowered or your setting has hellfire limited in some way then okay. But I don't think strictly enforcing race restrictions on anything is really grasping the intent of the Customizing Your Origin section or the changes WotC is moving forward with.
Umm, because it's the rules.

I was thinking about a dwarf with elven accuracy, and a careful reading of what Tasha's allowed you to change did not unlock the racial feats to other races. You mix in just randomly unbarring those feats, making it pretty obvious that your understanding of what is allowed is a lot more promiscuous then the rules actually say.

Please, go back and give me a direct quote from the rules that support that Custom Lineage can be defined as a specific race. I gave you direct rules quotes, if you can't do the same then it's pretty obvious I have the right of the rules. You are welcome to, as always, play them differently at your table with the DM's approval. But if you can't find any rule support to make it at least contradicting itself, then it's unambiguous in the wording that it's not any of the races.
 

Umm, because it's the rules.

I was thinking about a dwarf with elven accuracy, and a careful reading of what Tasha's allowed you to change did not unlock the racial feats to other races. You mix in just randomly unbarring those feats, making it pretty obvious that your understanding of what is allowed is a lot more promiscuous then the rules actually say.

Please, go back and give me a direct quote from the rules that support that Custom Lineage can be defined as a specific race. I gave you direct rules quotes, if you can't do the same then it's pretty obvious I have the right of the rules. You are welcome to, as always, play them differently at your table with the DM's approval. But if you can't find any rule support to make it at least contradicting itself, then it's unambiguous in the wording that it's not any of the races.

I did not argue that Custom Lineage can be defined as a specific race. That was another poster. I quite clearly said that entire line of reasoning was irrelevant.

What I said was that the natural conclusion of reading the Tasha's Customizing Your Origin section -- which is to say, pages 7 & 8 and not merely the Custom Lineage sidebar on page 8 -- was to conclude that the game was telling you that classes, subclasses, feats, and all similar game mechanics should not strictly limit to the listed race of a character but instead consider the culture of the character instead. That racial prerequisites should be considered racial or cultural prerequisites if that could be suitable to the feature.

Since I see nothing in the rules for Flames of Phlegethos that demands a Tiefling-specific racial feature like Dragon Fear requires the Dragonborn's breath weapon, I conclude that Tasha's is telling me to releax the restriction on Flames of Phlegethos. That means a straight up Fire Genasi should be able to take Flames of Phlegethos. Or a Red Dragonborn. Or a plain Human if the character's background or culture suggest that it's possible. None of these characters are using Custom Lineage.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I did not argue that Custom Lineage can be defined as a specific race. That was another poster. I quite clearly said that entire line of reasoning was irrelevant.

What I said was that the natural conclusion of reading the Tasha's Customizing Your Origin section -- which is to say, pages 7 & 8 and not merely the Custom Lineage sidebar on page 8 -- was to conclude that the game was telling you that classes, subclasses, feats, and all similar game mechanics should not strictly limit to the listed race of a character but instead consider the culture of the character instead. That racial prerequisites should be considered racial or cultural prerequisites if that could be suitable to the feature.

Since I see nothing in the rules for Flames of Phlegethos that demands a Tiefling-specific racial feature like Dragon Fear requires the Dragonborn's breath weapon, I conclude that Tasha's is telling me to releax the restriction on Flames of Phlegethos. That means a straight up Fire Genasi should be able to take Flames of Phlegethos. Or a Red Dragonborn. Or a plain Human if the character's background or culture suggest that it's possible. None of these characters are using Custom Lineage.
You repeat my point. You take rules that say one thing - "these things can change", and extrapolate them out to other rules "because you see nothing that ties this to race".

Again, you are being a lot more promiscuous then the rules are. The rules detail what can change, you are the one adding more to that list because you feel it is right and you judge that some racial feats can be more open.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
My interpretation is you can "write in" any race with a custom lineage. If the player writes in "Tiefling" they can qualify for tiefling racial feats (but obviously not half orc racial feats).
That is not my understanding. If a character is a custom lineage, he gets the custom lineage traits only. It would be way OP to give someone a +2 ASI, a feat, a free skill plus everything you get with Tiefling.

You can be a custom lineage Tiefling, or a half orc that looks like a Tiefling or anything in between, but the only things you get are the things in custom lineage (+2 ASI, a feat or darkvision, a skill)
 

auburn2

Adventurer
How is a 3rd level artificer getting 2nd level artificer spells?

As a half caster a 3rd level artificer is still casting only 1st level spells. When multiclassing she would eventually get higher level spell slots and be able to upcast those 1st spells. But I don't see how she ever gets access to higher level artificer spells?
YOu are correct. I changed my post to reflect that. She still can prepare more spells than a wizard though.
 


Hohige

Explorer
That is not my understanding. If a character is a custom lineage, he gets the custom lineage traits only. It would be way OP to give someone a +2 ASI, a feat, a free skill plus everything you get with Tiefling.

You can be a custom lineage Tiefling, or a half orc that looks like a Tiefling or anything in between, but the only things you get are the things in custom lineage (+2 ASI, a feat or darkvision, a skill)
Yes, The Flame of Pheletos and custom Lineage Works perfectly.
 


So a week ago or so Colby of the "D&D Optimized" Youtube channel, which liked to use custom lineage "elves" with Elven Accuracy in a lot of builds and got tired of having to throw up caveats about asking your DM because there was no official ruling asked his viewers to (gently) mass pester Jeremy Crawford to this effect:


It's just a tweet; run it as you like at your table. Personally I agree in as much as I think it was cheap and power gamey using custom lineage but then nominally calling yourself an X for the sake of qualifying for a feat, and I also think some of the racial feats are about being the elfiest elf that ever elfed, or what have you, and it was weird to have offbrand "honorary members" of X race get it sooner then proper ones. But I also see a missed opportunity in as much as I feel like some of the racial feats might make more sense as things you start the game with. Also I feel like the racial feats tend to be more flavorful and lend themselves to replacing racial features and the whole premise of custom lineage is to use a feat to build your own racelike thing.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
Yes, The Flame of Pheletos and custom Lineage Works perfectly.
I think the rules-lawyer answer would be as long as you are a custom-lineage Tiefling. So you can be a custom lineage Tiefling that looks like a halfling, but you can't be a custom lineage half Orc that looks like a Tiefling.

At my table though, if you wanted to take the feat you could take the feat. That would end the sillyness required to be "legal". I would probably let you do it as a V. Human too.
 


Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I think the rules-lawyer answer would be as long as you are a custom-lineage Tiefling. So you can be a custom lineage Tiefling that looks like a halfling, but you can't be a custom lineage half Orc that looks like a Tiefling.

At my table though, if you wanted to take the feat you could take the feat. That would end the sillyness required to be "legal". I would probably let you do it as a V. Human too.
A rules lawyer is strict about the wording of RAW and would follow the where it says "Instead of choosing one of the game's races...". The rules lawyer would think that you are a race (potentially modified by the Customizing Your Origin choices) or your are built using the Custom Lineage sidebar, but know the second explicitly precludes being the first.
 


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