Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Kershek said:
Aha -- thanks! I think I'll apply that both as written and to successful spellcraft attempts: if you realize that someone has cast an illusion, you get a +4 to your save vs. the illusion.
Daniel
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Fun stuff to do with illusions
- Thread starter Cyan
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Aha -- thanks! I think I'll apply that both as written and to successful spellcraft attempts: if you realize that someone has cast an illusion, you get a +4 to your save vs. the illusion.
Daniel
Nareau
Explorer
I'm playing an "illusionist" Sor8 in Piel's game. We've discussed the "spellcraft provides incontrovertible proof" idea, and there are some problems we can see with it. These problems come up especially when you're trying to get your friends to disbelieve something.
First off, identifying a spell via spellcraft essentially reflects the fact that you are able to recognize the words and gestures used to cast a particular spell. If you can recognize that something is an illusion via spellcraft, why shouldn't you recognize it by me shouting, "Hey guys, this is an illusion!" Or even sitting down around the campfire with your buds and saying, "OK, if you ever see me pointing up like this, and shouting 'brackenfrackenboom,' that's me casting Major Image." Or better still, developing a code phrase (like "BLUE FLAG!!!") that means, "I'm casting an illusion!" These all seem like good tactics to me.
But you run into problems when I cast Silent Image to mimic Obscuring Mist. All my friends know what I'm up to, so they can see right through it. All my enemies don't know, so they have to makes Will saves or suffer from concealment penalties. And I think that makes a 1st level illusion far too powerful.
It only gets worse when you start running into the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells.
We eventually agreed to say that the will save is what allows your brain to really understand that it's an illusion. It's like those magic eye posters. Someone can say, "Wow, it's a schooner," but that doesn't mean you can suddenly see it. In this case, we decided to say that these things (successful spellcraft, a pre-planned signal, etc.) should give you a bonus on your save, but not remove the need for a save entirely. Kershek's quote is very helpful, and it jibes with our reasoning.
Spider
Edit: This does raise another interesting question, though. How often can this be done? Just once/illusion? For example, could I cast a Shadow Conjuration: Sleet Storm in an area containing my friends, and each round shout out, "Blue flag! BLUE FLAG!!!" giving them another chance to disbelieve it with a +4 bonus? Could my other friends (who successfully disbelieved) also grant additional saves on their initiatives? What if my dumb friend still fails, and he tries to move...does his reflex save to avoid falling down get this bonus too?
First off, identifying a spell via spellcraft essentially reflects the fact that you are able to recognize the words and gestures used to cast a particular spell. If you can recognize that something is an illusion via spellcraft, why shouldn't you recognize it by me shouting, "Hey guys, this is an illusion!" Or even sitting down around the campfire with your buds and saying, "OK, if you ever see me pointing up like this, and shouting 'brackenfrackenboom,' that's me casting Major Image." Or better still, developing a code phrase (like "BLUE FLAG!!!") that means, "I'm casting an illusion!" These all seem like good tactics to me.
But you run into problems when I cast Silent Image to mimic Obscuring Mist. All my friends know what I'm up to, so they can see right through it. All my enemies don't know, so they have to makes Will saves or suffer from concealment penalties. And I think that makes a 1st level illusion far too powerful.
It only gets worse when you start running into the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells.
We eventually agreed to say that the will save is what allows your brain to really understand that it's an illusion. It's like those magic eye posters. Someone can say, "Wow, it's a schooner," but that doesn't mean you can suddenly see it. In this case, we decided to say that these things (successful spellcraft, a pre-planned signal, etc.) should give you a bonus on your save, but not remove the need for a save entirely. Kershek's quote is very helpful, and it jibes with our reasoning.
Spider
Edit: This does raise another interesting question, though. How often can this be done? Just once/illusion? For example, could I cast a Shadow Conjuration: Sleet Storm in an area containing my friends, and each round shout out, "Blue flag! BLUE FLAG!!!" giving them another chance to disbelieve it with a +4 bonus? Could my other friends (who successfully disbelieved) also grant additional saves on their initiatives? What if my dumb friend still fails, and he tries to move...does his reflex save to avoid falling down get this bonus too?
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I take offense to the dumb friend comment. 
I am happy that I was right about the +4 bonus too, thanks Kershek. I remembered it in 2nd edition and thought I had seen it in 3rd.
As for the continual use of "blue flag" or friends who saved telling me that it is all just an illusion, I'm not sure you would get cumulative +4s for each person shouting at me. I would say the original +4 is there each round and you should get a saving throw perhaps every round, especially since you know it is an illusion. Is disbelieving a MEA or free action? Anyways, I'm not sure how much extra you should lump onto the save with other people shouting at you that it is an illusion.
Tellerve
edit: for grammer mistakes, *sigh*
I am happy that I was right about the +4 bonus too, thanks Kershek. I remembered it in 2nd edition and thought I had seen it in 3rd.
As for the continual use of "blue flag" or friends who saved telling me that it is all just an illusion, I'm not sure you would get cumulative +4s for each person shouting at me. I would say the original +4 is there each round and you should get a saving throw perhaps every round, especially since you know it is an illusion. Is disbelieving a MEA or free action? Anyways, I'm not sure how much extra you should lump onto the save with other people shouting at you that it is an illusion.
Tellerve
edit: for grammer mistakes, *sigh*
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Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
From the SRD:
Daniel
Daniel
Nellisir
Hero
This is how I run illusions in my game (bear in mind, this is my game, and I do disagree with the official rules in some areas).
I allow a simple illusion (silent image) to create a single scene out of multiple images (orcs playing cards, guardsmen, etc). The caster can then modify the scene (within limits of the spell, obviously) as they like.
Illusions deal subdual damage. An illusion revealed as such (successful Will save) does no damage, and negates all previous damage. This is not the same as the shadow spells, which do real damage (albeit not so much).
incontroverable proof is rare; given a set of conditions, most players will justify them themselves (oh, he's standing on air? It must be an invisible bridge!)
I like the attack roll = will save idea, and will have to use it from now on. I had ruled that an illusionary creature had the "virtual" stats of a generic creature from the MM.
Interacting with an illusion is anything that requires a roll, plus actual interaction, depending on circumstances. Chatting with a major image, in the caster's native language, about subjects he is familiar with, shouldn't automatically require a Will save. Chatting up a balor illusion created by a CG wizard, however...
Illusions can't create "darkness", but they can block line of sight -- you could create a featureless black wall, or sphere, through which light but not sight could travel. Extending that a bit, there's no reason why you couldn't block someone's vision with an illusion of darkness (or an illusionary blindfold, or a 5x5x5 box).
Tacticwise, mixing evocations, conjurations, and illusions is always good. Nothing confuses an opponent like 5 real Small elementals and 4 illusionary ones, and after two real lightning bolts, few people actively disbelieve the third.
Cheers
Nell.
I allow a simple illusion (silent image) to create a single scene out of multiple images (orcs playing cards, guardsmen, etc). The caster can then modify the scene (within limits of the spell, obviously) as they like.
Illusions deal subdual damage. An illusion revealed as such (successful Will save) does no damage, and negates all previous damage. This is not the same as the shadow spells, which do real damage (albeit not so much).
incontroverable proof is rare; given a set of conditions, most players will justify them themselves (oh, he's standing on air? It must be an invisible bridge!)
I like the attack roll = will save idea, and will have to use it from now on. I had ruled that an illusionary creature had the "virtual" stats of a generic creature from the MM.
Interacting with an illusion is anything that requires a roll, plus actual interaction, depending on circumstances. Chatting with a major image, in the caster's native language, about subjects he is familiar with, shouldn't automatically require a Will save. Chatting up a balor illusion created by a CG wizard, however...
Illusions can't create "darkness", but they can block line of sight -- you could create a featureless black wall, or sphere, through which light but not sight could travel. Extending that a bit, there's no reason why you couldn't block someone's vision with an illusion of darkness (or an illusionary blindfold, or a 5x5x5 box).
Tacticwise, mixing evocations, conjurations, and illusions is always good. Nothing confuses an opponent like 5 real Small elementals and 4 illusionary ones, and after two real lightning bolts, few people actively disbelieve the third.
Cheers
Nell.
Yet there would be something black and opaque blocking the target's vision, and in a magical world that doesn't require physical contact. If the target thinks that it's a modified darkness spell, or just a magically animated sheet of black cloth, the effect is the same: "There's something in front of your eyes that you can't see through."Kershek said:
re
Here are some of the ways I have used illusions in the game:
1. A bunch of trolls running across a bridge. I used an illusion to make the end of the bridge seem a few feet to the left. Over half of them ran off into a chasm.
2. I used an illusion to create illusory duplicates of a few of the party members. A mixed group of actual party members walking in the middle and illusionary party members walked into an ambush, while the other party members prepared ranged attacks from a distance. When the ambush was spring, the ambushers were mostly attacking illusionary members while our other players picked them off from a distance.
3. I used an illusionary stone wall to trap a fleeing creature in a tunnel.
4. Used an illusion to alert the rest of the party to our location after a few of us were separated from the main party in the forest and ambushed. Kind of like the bat signal.
Those are the most memorable uses of illusion in recent memory. I like illusions. I just wish there weren't so many high level creatures with high will saves and immunity to most illusions so that they would be more useful past the low levels.
Here are some of the ways I have used illusions in the game:
1. A bunch of trolls running across a bridge. I used an illusion to make the end of the bridge seem a few feet to the left. Over half of them ran off into a chasm.
2. I used an illusion to create illusory duplicates of a few of the party members. A mixed group of actual party members walking in the middle and illusionary party members walked into an ambush, while the other party members prepared ranged attacks from a distance. When the ambush was spring, the ambushers were mostly attacking illusionary members while our other players picked them off from a distance.
3. I used an illusionary stone wall to trap a fleeing creature in a tunnel.
4. Used an illusion to alert the rest of the party to our location after a few of us were separated from the main party in the forest and ambushed. Kind of like the bat signal.
Those are the most memorable uses of illusion in recent memory. I like illusions. I just wish there weren't so many high level creatures with high will saves and immunity to most illusions so that they would be more useful past the low levels.
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