Fun to Play, Boring to Read; Forked Thread: The Nature of Change

[Storminator]

I actually do like reading the 4e books, even the power blocks (I like powers). I never really read my 3.5e books cover to cover (I usually skimmed them and referenced what I needed; only really sat down and read core parts of the rules, but the prose was far from scintillating), but I do for all of my 4e books. I guess that makes me an odd duck.

That is what makes you an odd duck?!

PS

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I
Sometimes I think it is this change that bug some 4e-detractors. 3e was more fun to play away from the table, and 4e is better at the table which is only a small fraction of the time compared to the intervening week(s).

It's bugging me! I spend several hours each day to trick out my next character or just create a new one for fun. For 4E, I usually only create a new character if we start a new campaign, and spend time "building" my character shortly before or after the session.
In a way that is very similar to what I did in 3E, but - it just takes a lot less time! Maybe 8 years of splat books can change that?

I admit it's not seriously bugging me. It's just something I observed.

The solution? Play more D&D, obviously

Or bash in our heads on EN World. IfD&D 4 provided the same amount of "homework" as 3E, you'd see a lot less activity from me on this forum, I suppose.

 

[Holy Smokes]

But where you learned 3e by making characters, you learn 4e by playing the game.

I think both work for 4E, even more than for 3E. I think tools like the Character Creator are more important this time around. Not because the creation process is complicated, of course, but because an effect of the software automation is the filtering of any non-relevant information. You can digest the crunchy nuggets easier in smaller portions.

I'm not a fan of any 4e layout choices at all, but what could they have done different? I guess breaking up the power blocks with art, or font type, or something else. I'm not sure. It really does read like a clinical textbook.

Agreed; its not an easy problem, and I'm not envious of anyone trying to solve it. I wonder, though, if Wizards didn't become a little too proud of their technological terror (to paraphrase Dearth Vader) and suffer a little statblock tunnel vision. Some kind of power summary guide or index might help.

The 4E PHB would ideally be a true ebook, where the presentation is entirely dynamic and topic driven. More like surfing a dynamically generated website than pretending to read like a traditional book. Right now the PHB power listings (and AV magic item lists) look like database dumps. Attractive, colorful data dumps, but still...

 

[Obryn]

I hate reading spell lists.

As the 4e PHB and Martial Power are, basically, spell lists. It should come as no surprise that I haven't read the PHB and Martial Power cover to cover.

To a large extent, I'm puzzled why anyone would want to read the 4e PHB front to back. The very thought is chilling, to me. I'm a 4e fan, but that just sounds dull.

Now, for 3e, I could understand that a DM would want broad competence about spell details, since so many monsters and NPCs referenced them. As a DM in 3e, I needed a lot of prep if the party was going up against a high-level caster or creature with insane numbers of SLA's. Memorizing spell details would certainly help on that count, although again, the thought of doing that freezes the blood in my veins.

But for 4e? As a DM, I'm not looking up monsters' and npcs' powers - they're all in the stat blocks. As a player, I look at the levels I'm taking and maybe one or two in advance.

Maybe some folks don't feel they get their money's worth out of any book - even a game book - if they don't?

-O

 

[JohnRTroy]

While my perspective comes from reading games more than playing them--yes, there ARE a lot of us out there--I also think people are looking at it from their years of experience rather than the inspiration all this text inspired.

I remember reading all the D&D books when I was a kid back in 1980+, and there was always a lot of cool things to read. Spells and magic items filled your imagination. While it might make a better game, I can't see the powers as presented in the 4e book having as much inspiration as reading the DMG and going over all the magic items, or the PHB and reading all the spells, learning the different schools of magic, reading all the permutations of spells.

I still get that coolness factor reading Arcana Evolved, Gygax's Lejendary Adventures, GURPS books, etc. I DON'T get that from the 4e book, perhaps the first "RPG" I ever felt was boring and uninspiring to the imagination.

My biggest concern is that future players and DMs will have less creative inspiration. Let's face it, a lot of us who've been playing for ages learned a lot from reading those books--and for those that say the so-called "fluff" belongs in setting books, keep in mind the PHB, DMG, and MM are the "core", the first experience, the "make or break" experience. I feel this streamlined version with powers that must not be described longer than 3 sentences, very dependent on the battlegrid, and narrowly-defined powers is going to have more trouble fueling the imaginations of the new players.

 

[Scribble]

I don't worry about future generations of gamers. They'll do just fine.

I can really dig getting down reading a book like the world of darkness stuff... Filled with inspiring flavor stuff that puts adventure ideas in my head right from the start... Problem is even after I finish reading the book I most likely still have little to no idea what I'm actually supposed to DO to play the game.