Wyrmshadows
Explorer
4e is not my style
QFT
The whole damn thing.
(my lurking must end now)
The fact is that I have been DMing for 23yrs and my very best campaigns have been those brimming with a sense of "reality" ie. the illusion of reality that is only had in an immersive and realized setting whether home brewed or pre-published.
I did the whole raid the dungeon, constant action, lets zip by the dull stuff (often the little details that make a fantasy setting come to life) thing from the ages of 13-16 and it is old and dull IMO. Old and dull and IMO better emulated by CRPGs like Oblivion and its ilk where fast based monster slaying and limited resource management are the rule of the day. IMO Elder Scrolls: Oblivion does D&D better than D&D if D&D is supposed to be nothing more than a fast paced action movie all of the time. I'm not saying 4e is like a video game, but I am saying that tabletop roleplaying can do infinitely more than that and that stupid quote in the DMG does a disservice to the game.
I am speaking form experience when I say that D&D or any RPing game can lead to some incredibly memorable moments that have nothing to combat or cool abilities but instead when my players where in character interacting with the world in ways that made, for them, their characters come alive. When I DMed FR, Shadowdale was a real place for them, they knew te local barmaids, the town drunk, etc. When I DMed DL, Solace was a real place for them. The players, through their characters, knew Tika Waylan and Caramon Majere and would reminisce, often with Tasselhoff Burrfoot, about the glories and terrors of the War of the Lance over plates of Otik's Spiced Potatoes. They would even visit a statue they had commissioned and built just on the outskirts of town and remember their fallen comrades.
These may seem like little things, but when players have an emotional investment in the setting via their immersion, through their characters, the game takes on a life of its own and we can forget we are playing a game with dice and little plastic toys...erm...minis (on the rare occasion I would use them). Plus, immersion is very valuable for helping the players to care about events in the setting that don't directly impact their character builds, XP or leveling concerns.
Then when something horrid happens to the town, or a valued NPC, and the heroes must ride to the rescue, the players and by default, their characters, actually care about the events in terms beyond how much XP will they earn or how much cool loot they will get.
Thus far, every player I have invited into my sessions has said, (to paraphrase) "Man, I have never played in a game like that...wow that was a great game...lets play again." Some of them never played in games that were anything more than hack n' slash fests with minimal "reality" and never have they left disappointed. If anything I converted them to my style of gaming.
For me and my players, the fun of the game is in playing the game and experiencing another place and time through the mechanism of their characters. The ups and downs of a realized world, with actions and consequence, with great risk and great reward, the encounters with elements of a vibrant setting (both wonderous and mundane)....these things are FUN in and of themselves.
Fun doesn't mean that one must pace D&D like a hollywood action movie with the "unfun" scenes cut. The interactive story that is the ongoing campaign is the eating stew at the local inn and flirting with the the obligatory sexy tavern wenches, the arduous overland journey during the depth of winter when rations are running low and the heart pounding battles against deadly enemies. All of these things are the FUN of D&D.
Cutting any of these things out IMO is a diminishment of the unique strengths of tabletop role playing games which lend themselves to an immersion impossible in any other type of game. I am not telling anyone how to run their game or play their characters.
I am saying however, that ultimately if 4e is setting out to alienate DMs and players who prefer a more immersive game where details matter than 4e is going to drive folks like me into the arms of other systems such as True20, Pathfinder, Runequest, etc. where depth and detail aren't WRONGBADFUN and subservient to a philosophy of all action all the time. Of course any RPG can be played this way, but when it is implied that detail and immersion are somehow unfun...it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of folks like me whose playstyles aren't in tune with current, trendy roleplaying fashion.
I'm already a True20, Conan and Runequest game master and am looking forward to Pathfinder. I bought the 4e PHB and DM's Guide (because I just had them when my local bookstore got them in stock) and read a friend's Monster Manual and know that 4e is not for me.
I was a 4e fan at first, then got on the fence once I heard some things pre-release that had me concerned and now have no interest after actually seeing the finished product. Great game, no doubt, but supportive of a playstyle that doesn't interest me in the slightest.
Add this to the recent GSL release and I am pretty sure WoTC won't be getting my support for the next several years. We'll see how 5e goes.
Wyrmshadows
Corinth said:
QFT
The whole damn thing.
(my lurking must end now)
The fact is that I have been DMing for 23yrs and my very best campaigns have been those brimming with a sense of "reality" ie. the illusion of reality that is only had in an immersive and realized setting whether home brewed or pre-published.
I did the whole raid the dungeon, constant action, lets zip by the dull stuff (often the little details that make a fantasy setting come to life) thing from the ages of 13-16 and it is old and dull IMO. Old and dull and IMO better emulated by CRPGs like Oblivion and its ilk where fast based monster slaying and limited resource management are the rule of the day. IMO Elder Scrolls: Oblivion does D&D better than D&D if D&D is supposed to be nothing more than a fast paced action movie all of the time. I'm not saying 4e is like a video game, but I am saying that tabletop roleplaying can do infinitely more than that and that stupid quote in the DMG does a disservice to the game.
I am speaking form experience when I say that D&D or any RPing game can lead to some incredibly memorable moments that have nothing to combat or cool abilities but instead when my players where in character interacting with the world in ways that made, for them, their characters come alive. When I DMed FR, Shadowdale was a real place for them, they knew te local barmaids, the town drunk, etc. When I DMed DL, Solace was a real place for them. The players, through their characters, knew Tika Waylan and Caramon Majere and would reminisce, often with Tasselhoff Burrfoot, about the glories and terrors of the War of the Lance over plates of Otik's Spiced Potatoes. They would even visit a statue they had commissioned and built just on the outskirts of town and remember their fallen comrades.
These may seem like little things, but when players have an emotional investment in the setting via their immersion, through their characters, the game takes on a life of its own and we can forget we are playing a game with dice and little plastic toys...erm...minis (on the rare occasion I would use them). Plus, immersion is very valuable for helping the players to care about events in the setting that don't directly impact their character builds, XP or leveling concerns.
Then when something horrid happens to the town, or a valued NPC, and the heroes must ride to the rescue, the players and by default, their characters, actually care about the events in terms beyond how much XP will they earn or how much cool loot they will get.
Thus far, every player I have invited into my sessions has said, (to paraphrase) "Man, I have never played in a game like that...wow that was a great game...lets play again." Some of them never played in games that were anything more than hack n' slash fests with minimal "reality" and never have they left disappointed. If anything I converted them to my style of gaming.
For me and my players, the fun of the game is in playing the game and experiencing another place and time through the mechanism of their characters. The ups and downs of a realized world, with actions and consequence, with great risk and great reward, the encounters with elements of a vibrant setting (both wonderous and mundane)....these things are FUN in and of themselves.
Fun doesn't mean that one must pace D&D like a hollywood action movie with the "unfun" scenes cut. The interactive story that is the ongoing campaign is the eating stew at the local inn and flirting with the the obligatory sexy tavern wenches, the arduous overland journey during the depth of winter when rations are running low and the heart pounding battles against deadly enemies. All of these things are the FUN of D&D.
Cutting any of these things out IMO is a diminishment of the unique strengths of tabletop role playing games which lend themselves to an immersion impossible in any other type of game. I am not telling anyone how to run their game or play their characters.
I am saying however, that ultimately if 4e is setting out to alienate DMs and players who prefer a more immersive game where details matter than 4e is going to drive folks like me into the arms of other systems such as True20, Pathfinder, Runequest, etc. where depth and detail aren't WRONGBADFUN and subservient to a philosophy of all action all the time. Of course any RPG can be played this way, but when it is implied that detail and immersion are somehow unfun...it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of folks like me whose playstyles aren't in tune with current, trendy roleplaying fashion.
I'm already a True20, Conan and Runequest game master and am looking forward to Pathfinder. I bought the 4e PHB and DM's Guide (because I just had them when my local bookstore got them in stock) and read a friend's Monster Manual and know that 4e is not for me.
I was a 4e fan at first, then got on the fence once I heard some things pre-release that had me concerned and now have no interest after actually seeing the finished product. Great game, no doubt, but supportive of a playstyle that doesn't interest me in the slightest.
Add this to the recent GSL release and I am pretty sure WoTC won't be getting my support for the next several years. We'll see how 5e goes.
Wyrmshadows
