D&D (2024) Future-Edition Brainstorming: A Simplified Cosmology (+)

[Jacob Lewis]

Or...

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Or...
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I acknowledge that the World Axis Cosmology is simpler than the Great Wheel. However, it is still fairly complicated. While it does look like 5 planes of existence in that display, it's more (it has the Abyss, Nine Hells, Pandemonium, Carceri, and other planes still. The Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea are more like Transitive Planes/Planar Locations that the other planes of existence are found in). I do prefer the World Axis to the Great Wheel, but it's not as simple as my tastes, and I did borrow a bit from it in my explanation of a possible simplified cosmology in the OP (Astral Sea with spelljammers in it, moving the cosmology from wheel-shaped to more "axis" based, etc).

 

[cbwjm]

Your suggestion is similar to my current homebrew. I have:

• Godsheim, the celestial plane from which the gods were born. Think of marvel comics' asgard floating in the astral sea. Their adventures in Godsheim become the myths of the prime.
• The prime plane, with the shadowfell and feywild situated close by (they don't reflect the prime though). They are floating upon the following planes (figuratively, not literally... maybe metaphysically?)
• The elemental planes with the elemental chaos at the centre.
• The lower planes, including the nine hells, the domains of sin, and the independent abyssal lords.

I don't really have the classic transitive planes like the ethereal or astral, the astral sea isn't really a transitive plane. However you can often find hidden pathways between different realms, many through the elemental planes linking the upper and lower planes to the prime.

I need a different name from godsheim. It was a stop gap which has stuck around in my notes but I'm not actually too fond of it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I need a different name from godsheim. It was a stop gap which has stuck around in my notes but I'm not actually too fond of it.

Perhaps Odrheim? From Wikipedia: "The Old Norse theonym Óðr derives from an identical noun, meaning 'mind, wit, soul, sense' but also 'song, poetry', which in turn stems from Proto-Germanic *wōðaz, a substantive of an adjective meaning 'possessed, inspired, delirious, raging'." It is the plane of the soul, but also the plane of song, poetry, and sagas.

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For my own part, I agree with most of it, but think there's still worth in separating the Hells from the Abyss--or at least in distinguishing them as two really important subsets of a singular Lower Plane. "Paradise" is unified despite its differences; Good aids Good even when they don't always get along. "Pandaemonium" is divided despite its similarities, so Evil attacks Evil even when they share common goals. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that it would be pretty cool to have both Hell and the Abyss because the two sides fought so hard, they tore their plane in half. There used to be a singular Lower Plane (call it Pandaemonium for fun), but the Blood War became so devastating, so severe, that it literally clove the two sides in twain. This also opens the door for some great prophetic shenanigans, where the prospect of a reunited Pandaemonium would mean very, very dire things for mortals, particularly if Heaven is currently incapable of fully mustering its forces (e.g. the differences are weighing heavily right now and it'd take a swift kick in the rear to get things back in shape.)

Personally, I feel even making the Shadowfell the "plane of law" is a bit much, since...well, it kinda makes law strongly associated with evil and destruction, given the nature of undeath and such. Perhaps that could be how some cultures view the Shadowfell, but I wouldn't personally stress "Shadowfell = Law, Feywild = Chaos" as an explicit cosmological link. As an example, the Feywild is also the place most strongly associated with arcane magic...which is stereotypically associated with Wizards, who are usually Lawful because of the demands of their discipline. Meanwhile, entropy is one of those lovely ambiguous things that can be either Law or Chaos depending on how you frame it (natural law forces greater entropy....but entropy is a measurement of the disorder of things!) So if you're really set on this, perhaps give it an almost literal taijitu/"yin-yang" element, where there's Chaos hidden within the Law and Law hidden within the Chaos or the like.

Beyond that...I mean, if you really like the elemental planes being almost entirely featureless inaccessible nothing, alright. I never really saw the point. If you're already inserting rocks into the purity of the elemental air and inserting pockets of air into the purity of elemental earth, I don't much see the point of insisting that there's this transfinite chunk of inaccessible whatever out there, since (by definition) it's inaccessible and featureless. Or, to put it another way: From the perspective of people who actually visit these planes, what's the difference between these two things?

• the fundamental nature of the elemental planes is literally, actually infinite stretches of pure, unadulterated elements, and we visit the vanishingly-small margins where it's 95% fire (or whatever)
• the fundamental nature of the elemental planes heavily biases them to one element, but the planes are so vast, you can easily find nigh-infinite stretches of pure, unadulterated elements if you go looking.

Because from where I'm sitting...there isn't one in practice. Neither in a Doylistic sense (we know where people are going to adventure, and it isn't going to be "infinite stretches of pure elements") nor in a Watsonian one (there's literally nothing there, so there's no motive to visit these actually-infinite stretches that couldn't be served by large-but-finite ones.) But there is a difference in how it cashes out, whether for Doyle or Watson: It explains why there's anything to be seen there at all, rather than the Plane of Fire being literally a featureless infinite expanse of fire and truly, absolutely nothing else.

 

[Li Shenron]

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I think your idea is fine! One single good afterlife and one single bad afterlife make sense. I am surprised by Shadowfell being the "lawful" place but ok. It's not clear if you mean Shadowfell and Feywild to also be afterlife.

Otherwise I don't see why the Great Wheel is difficult to understand. Yes it has probably too many planes, but "difficult to understand"? Or is this because you think you have to describe it all to your players in advance? I don't think average players are interested in listening to a whole lecture in cosmology before playing the game as much as we DMs are, so I generally suggest to keep it for ourselves until it comes up in the story.

 

[Lyxen]

Overall, I think that the problem only comes from people feeling that things are forced upon them, which is why the FR is such a problem, from an interesting world, it has become a monstrosity where players have to accept the intrusion of things which make no sense there.

Note that, in general, D&D does not do that kind of forcing, it's more like suggestions. For example, in another recent thread, I showed that Spelljammer was not forced upon Dark Sun for example. All these cross-pollinisations are completely optional.

What is important is to design the cosmology that works with the setting that you want to run, assuming that it's important for your stories there. It works really well for Eberron, or for Planescape, or for Dragonlance as long as you are playing that setting.

I happen to absolutely love Planescape, and I put it in most of my settings, but when I designed our best massive multi-DM campaign, I used a completely different and original cosmology because it was the only way to fit the mood and adventures that I wanted for that setting.

So if you want a simplified cosmology because it fits your setting, go ahead. It would not work for me since, as long as I'm doing some design, I prefer it to be really original and surprising, and basically yours is still an attempt to cram in everything D&D into a box of a different shape (which is different from what Eberron did, for example), but if it's what you are looking for, go ahead.

 

[Hussar]

The problem is, no, it really isn't an optional "cross pollination" when you start using modules. If you do all homebrew adventures, all the time, then great, you can pick and choose. But, as soon as you pick up a module, if it goes planar, it's 100% Planescape all the time. So, no, I disagree @Lyxen that it's just optional.

There are those of us who would love to play planar adventures without having to deal with all the crap that comes with it.

 

[Rogerd1]

This is essentially DnD cosmology, just done better in DC comics.
Where the Speed Force is you could replace that with Astral and then Ethereal planes.
Where the House of Heroes is, just replace that Shadowfell and Feywild.

Or do this, as per my cosmology.

Limbo: This circles the multiverse and is where the outsiders (Outer gods) reside.

Higher Place: This is where beings similar to ST Q, DC Mxy, or DW Eternals reside. They guard and protect the multiverse, but also use lesser beings, meaning everyone else, as toys for their amusement.

Dimensions: These are externals locations that float in the nothingness between planes.

Planes (Branes): They float on the sea of possibilities, like leaves. These can be from solar system to galaxy sized, of which there can be trillions, or more. All of these alternates has another existing alongside it. They all have their own mythic beings, dimensions, and afterlives – some of which are positively grim. These can be separated into Fantasy, High Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction etc.

Shadow: This is the nothingness between planes.

Sea of Possibilities: As per Dark Roads and Golden Hells.

This lets me use all the planar handbooks at the same time, as each one could be its own plane, with its own rules.

 

[Lyxen]

The problem is, no, it really isn't an optional "cross pollination" when you start using modules. If you do all homebrew adventures, all the time, then great, you can pick and choose. But, as soon as you pick up a module, if it goes planar, it's 100% Planescape all the time. So, no, I disagree @Lyxen that it's just optional.

First, there are not that many modules that go planar. Second, I think this point of view is biased by the fact that the only brutal cross-pollination example is that of the FR, and that most of the 5e modules have been published for that setting. The most immediate example is BG-DiA, which caused a problem for me because it started in the FR, not because it went to Hell, that second part was really cool. Fortunately, it was one of the parts of the FR that I can leave with.

But if you look at 4e which had a different cosmology (some parts were really nice in particular the Feywild and Shadowfell), then you did not find the great wheel.

There are those of us who would love to play planar adventures without having to deal with all the crap that comes with it.

The problem I think is that, except for Planescape which somehow made planar available at low level, planar adventures are usually considered high level, which is something that there is much less market for anyway. And I agree that Spelljammer made an intrusion in DotMM for no specific reason, but again this is the FR where cross-pollination is forced down your throat purposefully.

But I would be interested to know what examples you have in mind about planar adventures as there are not that many anyway as far as I know.

 

[Li Shenron]

The problem is, no, it really isn't an optional "cross pollination" when you start using modules. If you do all homebrew adventures, all the time, then great, you can pick and choose. But, as soon as you pick up a module, if it goes planar, it's 100% Planescape all the time. So, no, I disagree @Lyxen that it's just optional.

There are those of us who would love to play planar adventures without having to deal with all the crap that comes with it.

Well sometimes a minor adaptation is all you need. We played Lord of the Iron Fortress in 3ed as if Acheron was just an alternate material world rather than an afterlife, and there wasn't much to change in practice.