Future of the current Adventure League

[Pauper]

I'm wondering if anyone does.

*Nobody* sees how unbalancing the DM Quests are but me? That seems unlikely.

Regardless, the point is that, if the only reason you consider DMing is to rack up DM Quests, maybe you shouldn't be DMing.

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Pauper

 

[rooneg]

*Nobody* sees how unbalancing the DM Quests are but me? That seems unlikely.

Regardless, the point is that, if the only reason you consider DMing is to rack up DM Quests, maybe you shouldn't be DMing.

Please. If the only reason for DMing was for the quests nobody would DM. The quests aren't that good. Personally, I have limited time available to play AL games. I enjoy DMing, so I would like to DM. I also would like to someday have some characters that actually progress beyond the beginning of Tier 2. At this point, I split my time between playing and DMing, and the DM rewards and quests mean I'm further behind in advancing my characters than I would be if I was just playing, but not enormously far behind. If the quests weren't there I'd have difficulty justifying doing anything but playing, because I'd be so much further behind it would be absurd. I already watch my friends play Tier 3 and 4 games that I can't get into because I don't have high enough level characters, so every time I DM rather than play there is a cost associated with it. Every time someone talks about DM rewards they stand up this straw man of how nobody should DM just for the quests. Nobody's DMing JUST for the quests, but they are a factor in people deciding to DM or not (or what to DM, when deciding between CCC and regular AL stuff) and to pretend otherwise is naive.

 

[abs]

*Nobody* sees how unbalancing the DM Quests are but me? That seems unlikely.

Regardless, the point is that, if the only reason you consider DMing is to rack up DM Quests, maybe you shouldn't be DMing.

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Pauper

I'm kinda new here, but I have lurked some. I'm not going to dismiss the idea that something might be unbalancing about the DM Rewards and Quest Program. However, I would like to know what is "broken"? I tend to agree with the other posters that it isn't broken. The only thing I've seen so far is the statement that it is by one poster without defining "how".

 

[Inxanity]

I don't have anything big and meaningful to say, just that I always liked the DDAL adventures because they were separated from and didn't directly connect to the hardcovers, gotta say the change towards being more connected to the hardcovers has left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth, starting with moving away from the Moonsea (just so some conventions can write special adventures).

I miss the "State of [city]" articles, the special backgrounds the admins made for us, faction folders (yes I know, there are some on dmsguild but it's not the same). Just feels like AL is slowly being killed off.

 

[Pauper]

However, I would like to know what is "broken"? I tend to agree with the other posters that it isn't broken.

Let's start with the obvious one: Dedicated DM. Run 24 hours of mods, from any season, and you get to pick a magic item from any mod you've run for your character. The award says that the item must be tier-appropriate, but that restriction is effectively unenforceable, given that not every item specifies a rarity, and that other DMs must enforce the restriction at their tables. It's pretty disheartening to see a tier 1 character with the Sun Blade from Curse of Strahd, as an example. (And sure, I can say that won't fly at my table, but that doesn't stop the player from trying it at every other table he plays at, until he actually reaches tier 2 and there's no longer any indication that he did anything wrong.) Note as well that the award is currently restricted to WotC-produced mods (DDEX, DDAL, and hardcover mods), but there is already some pressure to expand this to CCC mods, which would utterly open the floodgates. This would be a far less broken award if it were restricted to only selecting a magic item from the current season, and only from a DDAL mod from the current season (which would neatly avoid the problem that most of the really problematic items in AL get in via the hardcover mods).

The Level Up award is basically an XP windfall for grognards, and worse than a typical award for anyone who's just getting started in DMing. At this point, it just seems like a bone to the folks who've served as coordinators, and thus have been involved in the campaign from the beginning. It honestly does very little to aid with recruiting truly 'new' DMs.

The various 'double the DM awards' quests don't explicitly specify that they only double the awards granted in the module being run. I've actually gotten into a conversation with a DM who insisted that, since his 'Saint of Ilmater' game was also the game that qualified him for 'Dedicated DM', that he thus gets to choose two magic items, since 'Saint of Ilmater' "doubles the DM rewards", and every benefit under the DM Quests is listed as a "DM Reward".

Lastly, DM awards that break other AL rules (such as King of the Ordning) are a phenomenally bad idea, because it sets the precedent that some rules can be broken just because someone is doing something seen as beneficial. Since the AL allows this for DMs who run a lot of games, why wouldn't they also turn a blind eye to, say, DMPCs, or DMs giving bonuses to their favorite players in-game?

Lastly, the fact that the entire rewards system is run on the honor system is problematic for convention play -- players walk in from far-away places that nobody in the room knows anything about but them, and they claim to have run the entire Storm King's Thunder season twice at their local game store. It takes a particularly confident DM to even ask for the player to justify his claim, and even if she does so, there's no actual logging or other documentation requirement for DMs, so when the player simply says he doesn't have any proof of his claim, the DM simply has to go with her gut feeling as to whether the player is being honest or exploiting the system for his own benefit at the expense of the other players at her table.

And again, it's difficult to believe that I'm the only one who has seen these problems in play. If you guys want to keep the quests as they are because you want to keep exploiting them, that's fine -- just own up to it.

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Pauper

 

[xanstin]

Pauper,

I would really like to meet some of the people you clearly have had the displeasure of playing with.

 

[Pauper]

I would really like to meet some of the people you clearly have had the displeasure of playing with.

If you honestly haven't, then consider yourself very fortunate (or very isolated).

--
Pauper

 

[rooneg]

Let's start with the obvious one: Dedicated DM. Run 24 hours of mods, from any season, and you get to pick a magic item from any mod you've run for your character. The award says that the item must be tier-appropriate, but that restriction is effectively unenforceable, given that not every item specifies a rarity, and that other DMs must enforce the restriction at their tables. It's pretty disheartening to see a tier 1 character with the Sun Blade from Curse of Strahd, as an example. (And sure, I can say that won't fly at my table, but that doesn't stop the player from trying it at every other table he plays at, until he actually reaches tier 2 and there's no longer any indication that he did anything wrong.) Note as well that the award is currently restricted to WotC-produced mods (DDEX, DDAL, and hardcover mods), but there is already some pressure to expand this to CCC mods, which would utterly open the floodgates. This would be a far less broken award if it were restricted to only selecting a magic item from the current season, and only from a DDAL mod from the current season (which would neatly avoid the problem that most of the really problematic items in AL get in via the hardcover mods).

Umm, items without a rarity are not legal for Dedicated DM. If you're seeing people assign a Sun Blade to a tier 1 PC they're cheating, full stop. As for opening the floodgates, CCC content is all reviewed by AL admins. They approve the items that go into them, just like they do the regular adventures. If you want to complain about adventures that allow too much stuff you should complain about SKT and its "random rolls" that are often not terribly random. Now that's a point to complain about, but it's not a DM quest issue, it's a "this adventure isn't designed for organized play" issue.

The Level Up award is basically an XP windfall for grognards, and worse than a typical award for anyone who's just getting started in DMing. At this point, it just seems like a bone to the folks who've served as coordinators, and thus have been involved in the campaign from the beginning. It honestly does very little to aid with recruiting truly 'new' DMs.

I see little reason to complain about XP windfalls. I already routinely play in con games where some PCs are at the high end of a tier and some are at the low end, giving DMs ways to apply a bunch of XP just lets them skip around in the tier as they want. There isn't a real problem here.

The various 'double the DM awards' quests don't explicitly specify that they only double the awards granted in the module being run. I've actually gotten into a conversation with a DM who insisted that, since his 'Saint of Ilmater' game was also the game that qualified him for 'Dedicated DM', that he thus gets to choose two magic items, since 'Saint of Ilmater' "doubles the DM rewards", and every benefit under the DM Quests is listed as a "DM Reward".

Again, the fact that people are cheating (and that's what it is, the FAQs are clear that the various doubling quests just apply to the XP/Gold/Downtime awards) doesn't mean the system is unfair. It just means that people are cheating.

Lastly, DM awards that break other AL rules (such as King of the Ordning) are a phenomenally bad idea, because it sets the precedent that some rules can be broken just because someone is doing something seen as beneficial. Since the AL allows this for DMs who run a lot of games, why wouldn't they also turn a blind eye to, say, DMPCs, or DMs giving bonuses to their favorite players in-game?

It's an incentive to DM a lot. I'm not seeing how it's a real problem, especially considering that the rule banning Aarokocra is designed to avoid access to flight at level 1, which King of the Ordning doesn't do (you have to start at level 5 due to the XP it awards).

Lastly, the fact that the entire rewards system is run on the honor system is problematic for convention play -- players walk in from far-away places that nobody in the room knows anything about but them, and they claim to have run the entire Storm King's Thunder season twice at their local game store. It takes a particularly confident DM to even ask for the player to justify his claim, and even if she does so, there's no actual logging or other documentation requirement for DMs, so when the player simply says he doesn't have any proof of his claim, the DM simply has to go with her gut feeling as to whether the player is being honest or exploiting the system for his own benefit at the expense of the other players at her table.

All of AL is run under the honor system, if you are having a problem with DM rewards and you remove those awards you'll just get the same people faking up a log sheet and cheating that way. Your problem isn't with DM rewards/quests, it's with people cheating.

And again, it's difficult to believe that I'm the only one who has seen these problems in play. If you guys want to keep the quests as they are because you want to keep exploiting them, that's fine -- just own up to it.

Sure, I've seen people using the rewards incorrectly and I've corrected them nicely when I did. It's not some plague upon the world like you seem to think it is. And no, damn it, I'm not exploiting the quests, I'm taking advantage of them as they're intended to be used, in return for the time I spent running the damn games.

 

[xanstin]

If you honestly haven't, then consider yourself very fortunate (or very isolated).

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Pauper

Admittedly I fall under the online contingent and not in store due to no options where I live. We have slowly built the group with normal well adjusted human beings that don't exploit every rule breaking scenario. So I guess I have been very lucky.

Also in regards to your examples about DMs cheating or being misinformed that is not unique to DM quests in an honor system. Nothing but my own personal code stops me from making a tier 4 PC with a doctored log with any item I want from said modules. A quick internet search and you have all the data you need to make it believable and since DCI numbers are not required.... even easier.

 

[nswanson27]

I think, if anything, AL is getting better. The DM quests is working as intended, and I'm glad they get rewarded for all the extra prep and responsibility they take on. Only thing I wish would stop is the snowballing restriction list on magic item trading.
The other nice benefit of DM xp is that it helps populate the higher tier bases for people who want to play t3/t4 who otherwise couldn't.