Game Balance: possible without magic items?

[Alchemist]

I have been running a low-magic world for almost 11 years, from 2E translated into 3E. The way I have handled this is in 3e is:

1. Spellcasters have access to only 1st-5th level spells. They gain one level of spells every 3 levels, but gain more spells per level. Level 6-9 spells are ritual spells that require multiple casters to perform. In addition, spellcasters must make a spellcraft check to cast a spell equal to 10+2(spell level +1). Otherwise, with lower magic item counts, spellcasters will dominate over other classes. This progression seems to be fair, and the players have liked it so far.

2. Add half base reflex save to AC.

3. Cut magical items back by 1/3 to 1/5th.

4. NO monks, and classes that have innate magical abilities are scaled back as well (druid, paladin, etc).

5. Monsters with DR are rare, as are monsters in any form- I use mostly human and humanoid opponents.

6. Use a WP/VP system. At lower levels, characters are somewhat more hardy, while they are not walking tanks at higher levels. Characters also can take the Toughness feat, which grants +3 WP each time it is taken.

This is good stuff. Consider it stolen.

I'm curious though, what's the reasoning behind restricting Monks? And are you restricting magic items by 1/3-1/5, or to 1/3-1/5?

 

[Gothmog]

Oops Alchemist, I should have made that more clear. I take the DMG table of suggested wealth per level and restrict it by 1/3 to 1/5th.

A few other things that also slipped my mind in the first post:

7. Use mundane herbs and alchemical mixtures for various effects since magic is more rare. Example- herbs that act as wound closers (1d3 hp heal), elixers that grant enhanced low-light vision, or brewed mixtures that increase the imbiber's resistance to infection and disease.

8. As Ace said, revise feats to be given at levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,and 20. Also, I start all characters out with an extra background feat which is related to their culture or social station, and has no combat effects.

 

[Gothmog]

Oh, and the reason I don't allows monks is because they do not fit the flavor of my setting, and because too many of their innate abilities are overpoweringly potent in a low-magic world. Strip them of those abilities and they are little better than fighters with the unarmed feat chains.

 

[Emirikol]

another good way to keep spellcasters a little elss powerful is to make them take a level of non-spellcaster for every level of spellcaster. i.e. wiz4/exp5 lots of skills, fun character, but fewer spells...

In our Hyboria game, the rule is that nobody can start out as a wiz, cleric. or druid. They have to 'earn' their class at 2nd character level or higher.

I've also eliminated 3rd+ level bonus spells (instead, the PC get's feats as those spells would normally have been earned..no you can't take the 'extra spell feats

I don't want to make the world unpalatable for players by ditching all magic, or by making it un-fun to play spellcasters though. So, I'm keeping as much as possible without having it look like a traditional D&D game.

Em
(with a new and corrected sig)








..

 

[Emirikol]

No real limits on sorcerers?
The succeeding poster is right ... I would hate to be a fighter facing an Improved Invisible sorcerer without a Gem of True Seeing or even Dust of Appearance.

That's assuming that the DM would send such guys at the party. Really, if a DM took away all magic items and then just runs the monsters like "FR" or Greyhawk D&D, that's just a dumb DM.

A DM that runs a few-magic-items campaign just needs to not screw the players over and to be ready to be flexible. I haven't found it to be that hard to be flexible as a DM with the new rules and with my low-item campaign.

Some DM's may have some trouble with that though.

Those are the same DM's that will go out looking for players with a slogan of "Hi, I'm here to make your D&D game as un-fun as possible. I've removed all game rewards (x.p., g.p. and M.items), and did I remember to mention that I have a chip on my shoulder? I hate players!" He won't find players for his game very fast..and they'll 'forget' to show up to a lot of sessions. Heh.

Em














.

 

[Emirikol]

Etc., etc. And those are spells from just the first four levels of the Sorcerers list. Casters are already amazingly powerful, and if you remove the magic items that Fighter and Rogue types are so heavily reliant upon, they will become practically invincible if you do not place real, heavy restrictions upon them. [/B]

In our low-magic game, we've found the most powerful spell is.........drumrolll...........

ENTANGLE from the druid in the party.


Em

 

[Alchemist]

Oops Alchemist, I should have made that more clear. I take the DMG table of suggested wealth per level and restrict it by 1/3 to 1/5th.

A few other things that also slipped my mind in the first post:

7. Use mundane herbs and alchemical mixtures for various effects since magic is more rare. Example- herbs that act as wound closers (1d3 hp heal), elixers that grant enhanced low-light vision, or brewed mixtures that increase the imbiber's resistance to infection and disease.

8. As Ace said, revise feats to be given at levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,and 20. Also, I start all characters out with an extra background feat which is related to their culture or social station, and has no combat effects.

Good stuff. I have similar plans for alchemical preparations.

Another question for you. What happens if a caster fails his caster check, what happens? Does the spell slot vanish in the miscast? Is the slot retained as though the spell was never attempted? Is there some sort of backlash?

 

[maddman75]

Here's the best low magic rule I've heard, and IIRC credit goes to Colnel Hardisson.

No character may have more than half his levels in bard, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, or druid.

That's it. That takes care of the problem (assuming the DM has some sense about DR). No magic items, as it now takes a 10th level mage to make a +1 sword. Magic is still there, but would be much rarer. You could even have a total caster, but as a Druid 6/mage 6 they'd be much more inline at higher levels with the warriors and such. I mean Raise Dead and Teleport (the spells that really transform play IMHO) wouldn't be available until 18th level.

Of course, there could be individuals that can single class as a spellcaster. But they have to sell their souls to a demon or somesuch >

 

[Gothmog]

Alchemist, what I have done with caster spell checks is to say that if they miss the roll by more than 6 points, the spell slot is wasted. If they fail by less than 5 on the check, then the slot is not wasted, but the spell fails to go off. If a natural 1 is rolled, a spell disaster occurs, the effects of which are up to the DM to decide, depending on the spell being cast.

 

[S'mon]

A workable true 'low magic' setting requires that the following be reduced or eliminated:

1. Magic items
2. Monsters with magic powers
3. Spellcasting classes

If you adjust one of these but not the others it throws things out of whack. Eg no magic items but unaltered classes just makes the spellcasters totally dominant, especially clerics and high-level sorcerers.

My own attempt at a low magic setting is here:
http://www.geocities.com/s.t.newman/TWILIGHT.htm

_______________

Rules variations for this setting:

There is no Divine magic, and the only spellcaster class normally available is my Black Wizard class - see the Hyboria website:

http://hyboria.xoth.net/prestige-classes/black_wizard_npc.htm

Available classes:
Barbarian: no problem.
Fighter: no problem.
Monk: Very powerful in low-magic setting, some abilities may need reducing.
Ean Ranger : non-spellcasting class with more feats.
Rogue: no problem.
Black Wizard : see above.

Use of spells and spell-like abilities in the normal time requires a Spellcraft check. Usually the caster make ‘take 10’, in which case casting time becomes 10 times longer - a standard action spell will take 10 minutes to cast. Generally the magic level is lower.

Damage Reduction is reduced; incorporeal creatures are very rare and are tied to specific places and times, they often possess specific vulnerabilities, most commonly to fire.

__________

I could have included a paladin class, probably non-spellcasting. I could have redone the cleric class, something more along the lines of 2e priests (see the 2e Complete Priest's Handbook) but that would take a lot of work - IMO 3e clerics are overpowered even in a high-magic game, never mind low-magic.