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D&D 5E Game design allow sub optimal class build. Confirmed by M Mearls

[MENTION=6777454]TheHobgoblin[/MENTION] I bet as wizard, having a second life should count something. Con is also not wasted.

A half orc sorcerer or wizard will take following array:

Str 8+2
Dex 13
Con 15+1
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10

No negative stat. Casting stat well enough. Con very good, so concentration checks are no problem. AC is 14 with mage armor which is not too bad.

If point buy is allowed, lower cha to 8 and increase dex to 14. That makes the build a bit more solid.
 

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Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
Maybe I'm confused. The title of the thread, with the quoted tweet, seems to imply to me that people weren't sure if they could make a non-optimized character and that's somehow a revelation with Mearls' response? "Does game design allow suboptimal PCs?"
It's relevant to encounter building, and it partially explains why the encounter building guidelines fail at higher levels. As I said in the UA thread, I have to throw Deadly x4 encounters at my high-level group to even remotely challenge them. Now we know why. The math doesn't assume that characters take optimal ASIs or feats. This isn't important at levels 1-3, when there are so few opportunities for optimization, but as you gain levels, the difference only grows. So the math works for all play-styles to begin with, but it slowly falls apart as different play-styles lead to wildly divergent power-levels.

None of this is particularly surprising. It just confirms what we already knew (or at least suspected).
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
It's confirmed that optimizers are good at the game and that if you want to challenge them you'll need to take care and not rely on rules built for a general audience, sure.

But, that's always been the case. Even in the carefully balanced 4e you had frostcheese and charging builds that would've wrecked encounters built for the group with the dwarf bard and the halfling slayer.

What this confirms for me is that optimization is quixotic by design. You're not missing out if you don't bless the half orc barbarian with GWM. It's fine.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
Still, the type of campaign, and DM strengths/weaknesses or even DM preferences or biases, will be key when determining how "fun" it is to play less optimized PCs.

When I run a game (and when I design my own campaigns) I try to balance the three pillars (combat, interaction and exploration) so that it is more likely that a PC that has strengths and weaknesses will find opportunities to shine (or have fun failing in some situations as well).

In some of my campaign play over the past few years, the melee optimized Half-Orc fighter, while superior in melee combat, has not overshadowed the rogues, bard, wizard, paladin or cleric because there are many situations where melee combat is not the best course of action, or when combat versus hoards of opponents is better met by a area of effect spell from the wizard, bard or cleric.

At one point in one of my campaigns, a player in my group played a noble cleric that avoided combat and had disdain for getting dirty. This made him play "less optimally" but it added a wealth of character enhancing the group dynamic of the party. In a group that accepts this type of play, the "less optimal" PC can make the game more interesting. On the other hand, if all the players in the group are purely team goal, achievement oriented, playing the "less optimal" PC can lead to problems.

Surely, bounded accuracy helps to allow for more or less optimized PCs to play together, to a point, but more importantly I think the roleplaying aspects of the game including PC personality traits, flaws, bonds, etc, and the conscious acceptance of story and character development rather than a hard focus on just killing monsters or solving problems efficiently, is the key to sustaining a campaign with sub-optimal PCs.

To this, even the frequency that a DM grants inspiration (or advantage) to players (or has players grant it to other players, whatever option is used) can make it more likely that sub-optimal PCs contribute to the game. A player with a low attribute PC that plays to his/her flaws, traits, bonds, etc. and has access to extra die rolls at interesting times may nullify the purely mechanical disadvantage pure modifiers would set up.

Overall, the ability to play sub-optimal PCs and make sub-optimal decisions and balance the game in ways that give DM and players what they want, is one of the reasons why I really do like 5e better than other versions of the game.
 

Satyrn

First Post
It's confirmed that optimizers are good at the game and that if you want to challenge them you'll need to take care and not rely on rules built for a general audience, sure.

But, that's always been the case. Even in the carefully balanced 4e you had frostcheese and charging builds that would've wrecked encounters built for the group with the dwarf bard and the halfling slayer.

What this confirms for me is that optimization is quixotic by design. You're not missing out if you don't bless the half orc barbarian with GWM. It's fine.
Aye. 3e wasn't designed around optimization, either. We ruined it by thinking it was. :(
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
[MENTION=6777454]TheHobgoblin[/MENTION] I bet as wizard, having a second life should count something. Con is also not wasted.

A half orc sorcerer or wizard will take following array:

Str 8+2
Dex 13
Con 15+1
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 10

No negative stat. Casting stat well enough. Con very good, so concentration checks are no problem. AC is 14 with mage armor which is not too bad.

If point buy is allowed, lower cha to 8 and increase dex to 14. That makes the build a bit more solid.


Well, try remaking the character as a varient human or a dwarf and I think you will fine it superior in everyway that acuually matters .
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
[MENTION=24923]hobgoblin[/MENTION] we already know the Firbolg stats from the product page at WotC site: +2 Wis, +1 Str, some magic stuff for sneaking. Probably best for everything except for Barbarian.
 

Plaguescarred

D&D Playtester for WoTC since 2012
For me the problem is not that 5E allow suboptimal class built you can have fun with, it's when people don't have fun when there's one at their table.
 

Well, try remaking the character as a varient human or a dwarf and I think you will fine it superior in everyway that acuually matters .

That may be true, but in actual play I'm not sure how much this matters. Part of the DM's job is to balance encounters with the actual party in play, so if a group has one or more suboptimal builds, the DM will take that into account. This often happens with casters who for RP reasons forego the usual fireballs for mechanically weaker spells. As a player, therefore, I would never worry about my power level compared with some theoretical optimized build.

If, on the other hand, the character feels noticeably weaker when compared with other PCs in the party, the DM can easily handle that with a magic item or special quest reward: "Grubaaz the Sorceror, because you completed the Quest of Zingolfin, you are forever blessed with a keener intellect than most of your kind!" (Or run a solo and give him/her an extra level or whatever.)

I've always found that optimal builds and balance matter more for computer games than for tabletop.
 
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Well, try remaking the character as a varient human or a dwarf and I think you will fine it superior in everyway that acuually matters .

That was not the intent... sorry. The character is totally fine. And none of your suggestions will survive an extra blow to the head or even a dragon breath.

And please show me how the dwarf is superior im your opinion.
 

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