D&D 5E Game design allow sub optimal class build. Confirmed by M Mearls

[Sunseeker]

Oh. Of course that is ok. Sorry. I mean looking up the monsters in the Monster Manual is a bad idea.

Ah I see you clarified.

See, I'm still two minds about this. I feel like the MM is an important part of understanding how the game works. Some people just have better memories than others (as my DM demonstrated to me last night). It doesn't bother me, since as you also say, it's not difficult to change them up a little bit to produce different results and defy expectations. A little change can go a long way. (I gave some zombies a "leap" ability" that scared the living daylights out of my players).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ah I see you clarified.

See, I'm still two minds about this. I feel like the MM is an important part of understanding how the game works. Some people just have better memories than others (as my DM demonstrated to me last night). It doesn't bother me, since as you also say, it's not difficult to change them up a little bit to produce different results and defy expectations. A little change can go a long way. (I gave some zombies a "leap" ability" that scared the living daylights out of my players).

A game with DMs is a different game. I say most DMs are able to play as if they didn't know everything. DMs are ise to play NPCs that act if they are oblivious to the PC abilities. At least a good DM does not play every ogre as a tactical genious or has his enemy mages not use magic missiles on the eldeitch knigh because he knows about him being a caster that knows shield...
... ok, lets just say that despite my very good memory I am good at forgetting about some abilities in the heat of battle. It is not unheard that I used sleep on the PC half elf...

 

[Zardnaar]

[MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION]'s implying he's talking about players creating a strength-based character with that low strength.

He's adding his name to the list of posters saying his table expects players to create Xena, Gabrielle or Autolycus. No Joxers allowed

I basically expect you to create a viable PC you do not have to min max to much. If you can make an 8 intelligence wizard work go for it.

If you can't though stop being an idiot and ruining the party.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here is my expectation of a player.

You have two players. One is a newbie and one is power gamer. The power gamer builds a great weapon master barbarian the newb takes a champion fighter and no feats and buffs strength or dexterity. One is better than the other and that's fine the newb can still do his thing.

Then you get a pumpkin who want to play we had 2 or 3 of them. They take a cleric who refuse to heal, a strength based PC with 12 strength or some other moronic concept.

Or we need a healer so the plan is to take a thief with the healer feat but then they take a arcane trickster take a non human and at level 4 buff intelligence and charisma. And then the party gets takedown.

D&D is a team based game. If the party needs a healer the last PC rolled up should be a healer or whatever the party needs. When I play I normally take the last role that needs filled.

In addition to being stupid these players were getting other pc's killed. After I booted them they more or less got kicked/tanked two other groups as well.

An 8 intelligence wizard may not be ideal but with clever spell selection and play you could still be very useful. Casting mage armor on a rogue or monk haste on a tank instead of fireball.

If you can make it work go for it. If you are a pumpkin I will have a quiet word with the player about it. If you are new other experienced players can help.

 

[Satyrn]

D&D is a team based game. If the party needs a healer the last PC rolled up should be a healer or whatever the party needs. When I play I normally take the last role that needs filled.

So, the person who is slow in calling "not It" is forced to play something they don't want to play. That would irritate me.

If y'all think you need a healer, or other role that y'all feel is necessary that no one wants to play, why not at least draw straws for it?

 

[Corwin]

D&D is a team based game. If the party needs a healer the last PC rolled up should be a healer or whatever the party needs. When I play I normally take the last role that needs filled.

But really, that just means you get to play the cleric. And we all know how broken you think bless is...

 

[flametitan]

Then you get a pumpkin who want to play we had 2 or 3 of them. They take a cleric who refuse to heal, a strength based PC with 12 strength or some other moronic concept.

What's wrong with a cleric that doesn't heal? The cleric domains are pretty good at not needing to be healers. Not they best, but I wouldn't shame a player for doing so. The 12 STR fighter isn't all that far behind either. If you talk to them, see if they'll be reasonable enough to bump it to 13, so they can use chain effectively. Or, they can wear the chain anyway. The penalty's only 10 feet of movement, or they might be a dwarf, so it's fairly reasonable to wear chain with low STR if you plan on being the one who's blocking tight corridors, rather than the one doing the damage.

Or we need a healer so the plan is to take a thief with the healer feat but then they take a arcane trickster take a non human and at level 4 buff intelligence and charisma. And then the party gets takedown.

I think this one needs a bit more story. Did you at least talk to the player in question before building around them doing this, or did you merely assume they'd be the healer? Did you talk to them afterwards to see why they decided they didn't want to be the healer?

D&D is a team based game. If the party needs a healer the last PC rolled up should be a healer or whatever the party needs. When I play I normally take the last role that needs filled.

I don't agree entirely. D&D is a team based game, but a player shouldn't feel like they need to be a certain concept they don't want to play, simply because of peer pressure. Instead everyone should look at what they want to do, then see what holes aren't filled, then adjust as necessary. Sometimes a hole isn't nearly as big as initially suspected.

I know my own group has been able to accomplish the "healer" role with just potions of healing. Was it efficient? Not really, but that's more because initiative screwed everyone over, which wouldn't have been solved by a dedicated healer.

 

[Satyrn]

I like clerics.

I don't understand why every party isn't all clerics.

 

[flametitan]

I like clerics.

I don't understand why every party isn't all clerics.

I prefer all bard parties myself. You can narrate them as if your game was an Opera performance.

 

[Satyrn]

I prefer all bard parties myself. You can narrate them as if your game was an Opera performance.